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Originally Posted by Spook410
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12-04-2021 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Acoustically in the room, it's a different story- the GB10 is pretty respectable, but my Cushman is handily better. Since I prefer to practice unamplified I play the Cushman more.
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Violinists find this debate risible
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
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We're supposed to imitate the human voice? Tell it to pianists and drummers...
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
Solid carved top guitars have many costs beyond the cost of acquisition. Relative to ply and plank instruments, they’re more prone to cracking etc from temperature extremes as minor as the gradient between a hot summer night and an air conditioned club. More than a few (like me) are more protective of and worried about physical damage when gigging with a more valuable and/or delicate instrument than with a less vulnerable axe. A thin nitro finish or French polish is more easily marked or otherwise marred by assaults as minor as a drop of perspiration. Insurance costs are generally proportional to purchase or replacement cost, etc etc.
Worth goes far beyond resale value. If you’ve dreamed of one since you were little, there’s great worth to you in having it. But the value to you if that’s why you bought it is only high if you love it enough to offset all costs from financial through emotional to practical. On the other hand, if it’s a business tool and it returns far more than the cost of ownership through teaching and playing fees, royalties, merch, etc, its worth would far exceed its cost.
So there’s no single answer to the question on which this thread is based. Each of us has to assess that value independently. I think the only valid question is “Are hand carved archtops worth the money to you?”
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Are hand-carved archtops worth the money? I'd sure like to find out! I'm having so much fun and deriving so much pleasure from my laminate archtops I'm not sure I could handle the joy of playing a fine instrument, such as a [insert name of bespoke builder here]. I will continue to appreciate such instruments from afar, enjoying their lore and transmitting their virtues to younger players, and listening to the records made by players vastly better than myself. I salute those with the wherewithal to purchase, play, and preserve these functional works of art, and wish them well unreservedly. I'm sure they appreciate the unique aspects of the ownership/conservatorship equation, and act responsibly. Townsend never smashed one of his D'Angelicos, after all.
If we are speaking of worth in a financial sense, relativism comes to the fore. I prefer to think of such instruments as good things in and of themselves, irrespective of the monetary investments necessary to obtain them. The question is, What Price Art? The answer, More than You can Afford, frequently. So be it.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I gig with my Bob-built 1990 Benedetto Cremona whenever it's the right tool for the occasion. To me, there would be no point in owning such a great instrument and not performing with it. Iffy weather on a outside gig, my 05 Eastman JP 880 gets the call. It's hand carved as well and does much better on Big Band gigs.
I had been saving money for a new car, and there was no question I would use the funds for the Benedetto and drive my old car longer. A decision I have never regretted.
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Originally Posted by citizenk74
Which promptly shattered.
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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True regarding classical string instruments. I am a cellist as well as a guitar player - and so buying a Gibson L5CES - which I love - and a Heritage Eagle - amazing instrument! - is no big deal compared to the $$$ I had to spend on a responsive cello. I have a few bows; one made by a Brazillian bow maker which is fantastic - cheap at $1000.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Hammertone
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I remember watching two separate gigs, both guitarists were upcoming great young players. One was playing an L5 through a vintage Fender Twin reverb (rich supportive family ). The sound was .. majestic! Exactly what jazz guitar is supposed to sound like, to my ears. Plus the visual enjoyment of seeing and hearing this beautiful instrument on stage and up close.
On the second gig, the guitarist was playing an Epiphone Les Paul through a Roland xl-40 amp (whole rig value about €400 used). On the brake he was saying how he recently traded his Benedetto for a Gibson 135, etc, and how he was getting to a point where the gear made little difference. His sound was great also, a typical good jazz guitar sound, nothing missing. (Wasn't majestic though ).
Or I have another friend who has great guitars. A vintage 175, good electrics, handmade acoustics and classicals. Tons of effect devices. Has played all over the world, with theatres and various bands in different styles of music. Don't think he has ever owned a tube amp, he plays through cheap solid state amps. Has exactly the sound he likes. I'm really hesitant to give him advise...
I like all these approaches. It's not the gear, it's the music. But then again, gear is part of the music. And once you hear something, you can't unhear it.
To me personally, every $$ is worth it. We spend our lives chasing tone (among other musical things), it makes our playing richer. If some gear is going to get you closer to the sound you hear in your head, go after that! Sometimes you might go around the block only to find yourself standing at the same spot, but still.. you been around!
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Originally Posted by Alter
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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My answer is that some of them are well worth the money. But it can take some trial-and-error to get there, unfortunately.
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You can't possibly spend too much money on a guitar. All your other comments are arguable in my opinion, but I say go for it.
No need to thank me. Advising people to spend copious amounts of money on guitars is what gives me joy.
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"I guess I disagree with everything you've said in this paragraph. Given that we have been blessed with an incredibly powerful polyphonic instrument capable of great harmonic depth and nuance, why in heaven's name would we want to give that up to copy something which can only produce one single note at a time? If I really want to sound like a human voice, I think I'll just sing but when I play guitar, I can do so much more than that."
Yep!
What he said!
Nicely put....
But seriously, if you think improvisation transcends the instrument it is being played on, then
how can one instrument take dominance over another.
Was an artist painting on a ceiling not credible because of the medium?
How can you support an argument that the creation of sound/time be restricted to one or a few instruments?
...so then, what instrument is rhythm best played on? It's about the the air you carve out the sound and
time in, not the object itself.
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Originally Posted by jazzimprov
I'm fortunate enough to have been able to learn to play trumpet, sax, keyboards, guitar, bass, percussion, vibes, accordion, and a few "lesser" instruments in my 75 years. And what I discovered is that each kind of instrument has a totally different feel and a unique relationship with its player. The concept of blowing hard into an instrument to make your music is intensely physical, and you feel like the horn is your voice because it's doing exactly what your voice does - it's controlling the pitch of a vibrating air column set in motion by your breathing. If you blow harder, it gets louder. All the subtleties of pitch, intonation, sound quality etc are also under your control, and mastering those interplays is the art of mastering the instrument.
Playing an instrument is giving vent to emotion. Sometimes many of us just feel like banging on something. If you can make music by doing that, you've found another great match. Bowing a stringed instrument can be a complex combination of intense physical activity and subtle finger control. Squeezing an accordion bellows while controlling notes from a keyboard and a panel of buttons is another combination of physical exertion and subtle, fine motor skill. Every class of instrument is different, and each appeals to people for whom the requisite generation of energy comes from activity they find pleasing in some way. None is better than any other and none is inherently inferior. All it takes is for you to be gratified by the exertion required to play your instrument and pleased with the sounds it produces in the process.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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12-07-2021, 02:18 PM #122Dutchbopper Guest
I always marvel at the self evidence with which many guys propagate the superiority of carved tops over laminate tops. I remember when a friend came over to my place with his Wesmo L5 and while he was pontificating how much richer it sounded than my Tal Farlow I was thinking the whole time how much better my Tal sounded. I did not say anything though. It's pointless debating stuff like this.
I want a guitar to produce the sound I hear in my head. And we all hear different things.
DB
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Originally Posted by citizenk74
And we were actually playing country music (except maybe every once in a while for me.....)
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Originally Posted by citizenk74
A carved achtop is also wasted on pickleball. The pros far prefer an SG.
RIP Nick Gravenites
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