Peter Bernstein -- Zeidler Archtop?

**bmw2002** · 06-19-2012, 12:31 PM

My wife and son surprised me for Father's Day by taking me out Saturday night to Chris' Jazz Club in Philadelphia (my son goes to college in the COBL) to see Peter Bernstein and Jimmy Bruno.

JB was playing the Jimmy Bruno model Sadowsky, which sounded great, but the star of the show for me was Peter Bernstein and his Zeidler archtop.

My little bit of research revealed that Zeidler died at a tragically early age and that his guitars are very rare and very expensive.

Does anyone know anything about Bernstein's Zeidler (dimensions, woods, construction, etc.)? Wonderful acoustic type sound.

Thanks for any info.

**JohnW400** · 06-19-2012, 12:38 PM

FYI, Here's an interesting bit about Zeidler. This model is at Mandolin Brothers

Zeidler (new) 'Project' Acoustic Archtop Custom Guitar - Mandolin Brothers, Ltd.

**disco~juice** · 06-19-2012, 01:55 PM

The only think I know is that Peter Bernstein was on the list with 2,5 years of waiting time and suddenly found this used zeidler. But Zeidlers were expensive when he was alive, now there's no chance to buy one.

**NSJ** · 06-19-2012, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by disco~juice

The only think I know is that Peter Bernstein was on the list with 2,5 years of waiting time and suddenly found this used zeidler. But Zeidlers were expensive when he was alive, now there's no chance to buy one.

As an aside, another luthier who is no longer with us and largely forgotten but made some incredible arch tops (only a few hundred in his lifetime, I believe) was Sam Koontz.

I have heard one of his oval hole arch tops (DeArmond RC 1100 pup) , and it is absolutely incredible. The sustain on it for an arch top is shocking--in a good way.

I had read that someone had unearthed a cache of about 30 old Koontz arch tops a couple years ago. Don't know if it was someone's collection and the collector passed away.

**Patrick2** · 06-19-2012, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

As an aside, another luthier who is no longer with us and largely forgotten but made some incredible arch tops (only a few hundred in his lifetime, I believe) was Sam Koontz.

I have heard one of his oval hole arch tops (DeArmond RC 1100 pup) , and it is absolutely incredible. The sustain on it for an arch top is shocking--in a good way.

I had read that someone had unearthed a cache of about 30 old Koontz arch tops a couple years ago. Don't know if it was someone's collection and the collector passed away.

I regret not having a chance to see more of Koontz' work than I did. I saw, held and played only two in my life. The two that I played were, crude, inconsistent and unrefined . . . at best. But, the fans of his guitars are cult like . . . so, I may have experienced 2 guitars that weren't good examples of his true talents and skills.

I know that Scott Chinery had quite a few of them in his collection, with Sam being from NJ. Scott too always spoke highly of his work. Maybe he's the collector you're thinking of that had a bunch and passed away?

**jorgemg1984** · 06-19-2012, 03:18 PM

I know it has a regular Classic 57 that is mounted as a floating and that he uses John Pearse Jazz Rounds (custom gauge).

**bmw2002** · 06-19-2012, 03:57 PM

"I know it has a regular Classic 57 that is mounted as a floating"

That's very interesting. I don't think I've seen that before.

During the break I tried to sneak up around the stage and see the Zeidler but Bernstein had it safely tucked away. Jimmy Bruno, on the other hand, left his Sadowsky precariously sitting on top of a stool. One bump and it would have been firewood!

**jorgemg1984** · 06-19-2012, 04:26 PM

Yeah i got that info straight from Peter. I think he even played at Zeidler's funeral.. he is just the nicest and humble person you can imagine; to me he brought that archtop trough clean amp trough the 21st century both in sound and language. His voicings are also pretty unique.

**David B** · 06-19-2012, 05:28 PM

Downbeat, July 2002:
Peter Bernstein, who says he's not a gear head, was just looking for
the right guitar when he met up with John Zeidler. The Philadelphia
guitar maker offered to make one for Bernstein (who had previously
owned a Gibson ES-175 and a Gibson L-5, among others) but told him
there was a two-year wait. "I wasn't even sure because it was a big
investment and it was like getting a mail-order bride," he says. Then a
friend told him about a hollow-body Zeidler archtop that was for sale.
It was love at first strum.

"It's a very live instrument," says Bernstein, who buys John Pearse
strings (14-52) in bulk. "It has a lot of sustain and a beautiful
acoustic sound. It's the best instrument I've ever owned. It's in my
house and is the first thing I see every morning. It looks like nothing
else: a dark spruce top that almost looks like the color of a bass. I
call it Brown Betty. You have to have a relationship with it. You care
for it and it'll treat you well. If you play like an ass, it'll let you
know."

**Marto** · 06-20-2012, 06:29 AM

Pete's tone was good when he was playing a 175 like on "Something Burning" and "Signs of Life" but when he got that Zeidler his tone became really special.
That tone and his playing is a large part of why I started playing jazz.

by jorgemg1984
I know it has a regular Classic 57 that is mounted as a floating and that he uses John Pearse Jazz Rounds (custom gauge).

So that's what the pickup is! Thanks for the info jorgemg1984

**Jabberwocky** · 06-20-2012, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

I know it has a regular Classic 57 that is mounted as a floating and that he uses John Pearse Jazz Rounds (custom gauge).

I saw a Youtube video of Peter Bernstein's Zeidler in a medium close up shot. It does have a regular humbucker mounted as a floater. I wonder how Zeidler did that? Wouldn't the humbucker be too thick though to sit between the top and the strings?

It does have a very nice woody acoustic tone mixed in the humbucker.

**JohnW400** · 06-20-2012, 02:41 PM

I know that Sam Koontz did the Standel Guitars. Did he also do Harptone? You can usually tell his stuff right off by the head stock.

Sam was a good builder with lot's of new ideas for the time. Some guys really like his stuff and others not so much. There's one at Mandolin Brothers for $20K. I wouldn't pay that kind of money for one but I'm not a collector

**wintermoon** · 06-20-2012, 07:15 PM

bmw2002,
I'm pretty sure Pete's guitar has a 17 1/2" lower bout. it's a very early example w/ a lot of inlay and the early style rounded top peghead and old style banner logo. [John quickly grew to dislike the look of inlays in his fingerboards and pegheads save for his logo] I had one similar to Pete's he built for me in '86 [wish I had it still]

fortunately I still have two archtops that John built--one for me and one for another friend of his who has also passed. I've had a few others he made for me over the years but he would make me one and then a couple years later tell me I had to sell it because his newer guitars were so much better. ;^)

jabberwocky,
funny you should mention that about the pickups. John made every component of his guitars by hand except the tuners and pickups, but even they weren't stock. he would disassemble them and grind down the components to make them thinner. his headstocks were tapered and he disliked the fact that the tuner shafts would protrude @ different lengths so he milled new shafts that revealed equally. his guitars were about as aesthetically perfect as you could get as well as sonically incredible.

I am priveleged to have been the guinea pig for the majority of the archtops he made in his life. he'd finish one and have me come over and play it for him and ask my opinion. we hung out almost every day, not only was he an incredible luthier, but everything he undertook he seemed to do better than anyone.

when it comes to archtops I've about had them all, and John was the best luthier I ever knew. but above all a great friend.

btw, I played w/Pat Mercuri @ his memorial, both of us on Zeidlers. Pete was there but I dont' remember him playing.

Howard Krive was also a very good friend. many of the guitars in his collection were either mine or aquired through me. the blonde Koontz in the video was mine, a superb sounding guitar, especially electrically w/the floating Dearmond.

speaking of friends, another of John's good friends passed last month, John McGann. John was an instructor @ Berklee and along w/Pete the most visible Zeidler player. his videos are on youtube, check them out and be amazed.

**jorgemg1984** · 06-20-2012, 07:42 PM

I have never seen so much info about Zeidler before... thanks!

A local player got one some time ago and he loves it... I would like to see it one day, I know it has no pickup.

**NSJ** · 06-21-2012, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by Hexatonics

I
Sam Koontz is the biggest example of this. It was interesting that someone played and was not overly impressed by two of his guitars. It really just backs u what im saying.

!

I can tell you definitely that I have heard a Sam Koontz guitar played at a few performances that just sounds as beautiful as I have EVER heard an arch top sound--incredible sustain, the notes have this incredible three dimensional quality, round and full and utterly alive. . But hey, I'm just a schmo student blah blah. Don't take my word for it. That same guitar was shown to Johnny Smith once, and he said that it was "the finest guitar he has ever played without exception". Without exception (!)

I just also saw Peter play and give a master class here. His guitar was beautiful. The dark brown wood was extremely distinctive. Needless to say, he was very protective of it, and didn't just leave it out on a stand. Took it personally himself back to the dressing room, etc. What a wonderful sounding guitar--what a supremely talented musician. There was something Barney Kessel-esque about his playing, the way he would seamlessly integrate chords with single note lines.

And Barney also had a very personal, beautiful distinctive guitar that he played above all other guitars, for most of his career--a modded ES-350.

**wintermoon** · 06-21-2012, 11:42 AM

not hard to believe NSJ.
the late Howard Krive said that his 18" Koontz [formerly owned by his teacher Harry Leahy] was hands down the finest sounding archtop he ever heard.
and Howard had many.....

over the years it had developed a bad neck twist but still played great.

**iim7V7IM7** · 06-21-2012, 04:56 PM

A few months back, I was speaking to an archtop luthier who is considered by many to be among the best and I asked him which other luthier's work he admired and why? The very first name he mentioned was John Zeidler. When I asked him why he told me that every guitar he made was just "special" in both their design, detail and tone. He just gushed on just how talented a luthier John was. Coming from him, this speaks volumes.

**fws6** · 06-22-2012, 02:05 AM

I have been looking at these so many times..... I have more than enough stuff and pices are high...... but man what a work of art.

**jamieh** · 06-22-2012, 10:05 AM

Saw a picture from this gig on facebook - would love to see video/audio if there was any taken!

**Pat Clare** · 06-22-2012, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

not hard to believe NSJ.
the late Howard Krive said that his 18" Koontz [formerly owned by his teacher Harry Leahy] was hands down the finest sounding archtop he ever heard.
and Howard had many.....

over the years it had developed a bad neck twist but still played great.

Harry bought that guitar from Pat Martino. It was an amazing guitar, but he always had trouble with the neck saying straight. He said that Sam Koontz was so confident that he would build guitars with "green wood' after Harry passed Steve Hayes had it inh his shop and was fixing it up, I'm sure he did a world class job.

**solidman** · 08-04-2012, 09:11 PM

Pete Bernstein told me his Zeidler was originally made for Steve Giordano, an excellent jazz guitarist still very active in the Philadelphia area. Pete bought it from a New York guitar dealer who arranged the sale for Steve. Steve probably worked out the specs with Zeidler, it has an ‘X’ braced solid spruce top; and floating full size humbucking pickup, which likely was modified by Zeidler himself, to fit the limited space on the guitar. I have played Pete’s Zeidler more than once; it is a very resonant excellent acoustic sound guitar, that sounds great electric, especially in Pete’s hands; he makes any guitar sound great; Pete said the neck on his Zeidler at the nut is a little too narrow even after playing it for years now. Five years before Zeidler’s death I bought a Zeidler (the first Jazz Deluxe model) similar to Pete’s but more ornate. Sound was good, but not exceptional; I owned the guitar for 10 years; I even had Zeidler set up the guitar. About five years after his death, I sold it for three times what I paid for it; not to make money, but because I was not happy with the acoustic sound of that particular guitar as beautiful looking as it was. Every archtop player knows: it is impossible for any builder to consistently produce guitars with unbelievable sound: they are human; there are many uncontrollable variables; Zeilder was no different: Pete’s Zeidler guitar is a ‘great one’; mine was OK, not great; but this is not unusual; same goes for D’Aquisto, D’Angelico, and all builders: very few of the guitars that are built (by any person or factory) turn out ‘unbelievably great’ sounding; it just depends on luck (luck is improved if a skilled guitar builder is involved); I would advise not to ‘buy with your eyes’ or by player, builder or brand name only; Zeidler as well as others, made a few ‘great ones’ ....strive to find one of those....chances are best if you stick with ‘names’ and Zeidler is one of many; cosmetically I agree his guitars are at the very top of the list; works of art; but sound wise IMHO the Zeidler name alone is not a guarantee of great sound; just keep buying, trying, selling, setting up, guitars, eventually you will find what you consider to be a ‘great one’ sound and playability wise; to each his own; sometimes guitars equally great in their own way are just ‘different’ and not ‘better than the other’; when you find it you should know it immediately (if the guitar is setup well, new strings, etc.). Reasonable price is another barrier. Good Luck!

Zeidler made excellent sounding and looking guitars; but others have, too. There are "great ones" out there but they are scarce for good reason: if you have one you tend to keep it. Every archtop guitar I have played, is different, even those made by the same builder, vintage and modern; sound depends on so many variables, comparison is difficult; a guitar with great potential may under perform simply because of bad set up, or a bad player, strings, and the reverse is also true; some sound great despite the variables.

I happen to know Wintermoon, an excellent musician, archtop guitar expert, both vintage and modern, was one of John Zeidler’s closest friends and I agree with everything he said. I owned a Zeidler, the first 16 inch Jazz Deluxe model pictured in his catalog John originally made for himself; I bought it from Mandolin Bros. in 1996. Absolutely stunning work, down to the most minute detail; perfect; met John Zeidler on several occasions and have been to his shop for adjustments to my Zeidler. I have owned many many other archtops as many as 50 at anyone time; vintage and modern builders; compared; played; had all my guitars set up professionally (some more than once); played professionally years ago; dealt with many guitar builders and repairmen.

**Ronstuff** · 08-08-2012, 01:38 PM

Something that I like about Peter Bernstein's sound is how good the amplified tone is. There's alot of talk on the forum about how carved acoustic archtops can be difficult to amplify, but his tone is just great. It seems to have a richer tone than a laminate in my opinion. I wish I could get that kind of amplified sound from my Eastman

**jorgemg1984** · 08-08-2012, 01:50 PM

I think one of the reasons is precisely the full-sized humbucker (vs the usual minis on carved). And Peter already had an awesome tone on his 175... and his BF Vibrolux should help too

**Skijump** · 08-31-2012, 01:45 AM

The floating Gibson humbucker on Peter's Zeidler was done by his friend, who is also a repairman/guitarist in NYC. He's done that for several guitar players, I guess. He usually thins the cover and screws out and accommodates it either on the neck or a pick guard. There must be at least 1/2" space between the top and fingerboard.
John Zeidler hated archtops amplified. He believed they should be played acoustically. He, however, put detachable Kent Armstrong floaters on the pick guard as customers' requests.
Peter's guitar is John's second or third archtop as far as I heard. His new guitars at the time were just incredible, though.

**whoknows19317** · 10-10-2012, 10:05 PM

Here's something you might be interested in. Below is an emai exchange with John McGann about my guitar. The first part is his response to my original email below. I have also attached some pictures

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Bob- Wow! As far as I know, that may be John's first archtop guitar as well as first left handed instrument, which makes it extra extra special....the market hasn't quite caught on the John's work yet, so the potential for your instrument to increase in value exponentially is huge IMHO.

Would you mind if I added these to my site? I can refer to you a RM (or anything else) for privacy if you like...thanks so much for sharing these pix in any case!

••••••••••••••••� �••••••••••••••••� ��••••••••••••••
John McGann
Professor, Strings
Berklee College of Music

From: Robert Metcalf <rmetcalf720@verizon.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 10:08 PM
To: john AT johnmcgann.com
Subject: Something you might be interested in

Dear John,

My name is Robert Metcalf. I believe I might have what is an almost, if
not, unique instrument.I was a working musician in the Philadelphia area
in the late 70s early 80s. Unfortunately in 1981 all of my guitars were
stolen. As a result of that incident, and after consulting with many of
my friends, I contracted with John Zeidler, then an up and coming
luthier, to build a guitar for me. This guitar was delivered to me in
early 1982 and I am the original owner. Thing is I'm left handed.
Shortly afterwards I stopped playing and the instrument has been in
storage for the last 30 years. After speaking with his widow, it has
become apparent that this is one of his earliest projects. It is
probably one of the first ten instruments he made (out of a total of
187), and according to Michelle, one of two or possibly three left
handed guitars. Now I'm not really looking for an appraisal as I have no
plans to sell it, but having visited your website I thought that you
might have a reaction to such an unusual object. I have attached some
photos, although I had to reduce the images size for email purposes.

Thanks again, and I look forward to hearing from you.

Bob Metcalf