Epiphone ES-175 Tuning Issues

**progjazzyrocker** · 03-07-2012, 06:15 PM

Hi to all ; )

I purchased an Epiphone es-175 new about 1 month ago.Great axe,plays and sounds super.
The guitar has been set up and by an authorized dealer.Gauge 0.11 strings.
A weird thing about this guitar,when I first pick-up the guitar and play, say for about 10 or 15 minutes or so,it goes sharp.Then I re-tune and can play without any tuning issue.The room I am in is not cold.
Any takers?

Cheers~

**fauves** · 03-07-2012, 06:25 PM

Lubricate the nut and even the bridge. Is it sharp on all strings or just a couple ? My arch tops do that more then the solids. Also sometimes go crazy and sharp with humidity changes.

I have been using big bends nut sauce. It's expensive but lasts forever. I have bigsbys on a few to contend with and it really helps even with the nuts properly cut

**PTChristopher** · 03-07-2012, 06:28 PM

Can you post a pic showing how you wind the string onto the tuner posts?

What Fauves mentions above is often very helpful for this. And a look at the tuner posts is another thing to check. In my opinion.

Chris

**korey-craft** · 03-07-2012, 07:18 PM

I've read the Gotoh tuners on these are pretty iffy quality maybe a replace may be in order. Try all other avenues first of course. I had similar issues with one of mine as well. Ended up selling it before I got around to sorting things out. Good value guitars tho

**PTChristopher** · 03-07-2012, 07:23 PM

[Quote]>>> I've read the Gotoh tuners on these are pretty iffy quality maybe a replace may be in order.

In my opinion, tuning problems are pretty much never the tuners.

Really, even truly awful tuners will not be a part of this problem. (Exactly how would an "iffy" tuner result in the OP's problem???) And, this guitar does not have factory-installed awful tuners. These days it is quite difficult to get really awful tuners on a guitar that is not made from green plastic with orange horseshoes painted on it.

'Mercy', as they say. Gotoh puts out a remarkably high quality product line at all price points. Also, I would have sworn that the Epi 175s had chrome Grovers on there??? (But I'm wrong pretty often.)

Oh what the heck, I may as well check: The pics and spec below match the Epi 175's I have seen.

But even if they were Gotoh tuners, I have the opinion that Gotoh tuners are very good in all configurations.

http://www.epiphone.com/Products/Archtop/ES-175.aspx

More EDIT: Korey-C, It is not my intent to be a jerk here (despite appearances). And maybe I am just flat-out wrong about what a web forum is supposed to be. It happens.

Chris

**korey-craft** · 03-07-2012, 08:11 PM

No worries, we're all about opinions here, I for one welcome the debate. No worries.

They are the Chrome tuners. You are correct good sir.

I've owned two Epiphone ES-175 in my time. One was OK one was fantastic. I'll look for the convo and try and post it. The person who ALSO had the issue found the tuners were backing off loosening tension.

Anyways, like I had suggested as well, exploring all other options and potential issues are best before performing any major surgery. I am all about taking care of all the odds and ends before going nuts. Ask my car, same theory there as well. lol

**PTChristopher** · 03-07-2012, 08:46 PM

I think I hear the twilight Zone theme faintly in the background.

**korey-craft** · 03-07-2012, 08:57 PM

:P

**Gitarguy** · 03-07-2012, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

I think I hear the twilight Zone theme faintly in the background.

Me too. As has been mentioned, the tuners are most likely not the problem. Remember, they are worm gears. A worm can drive a gear, but a gear can't drive a worm.

Lube the nut and bridge, and make sure the strings are installed correctly.

**progjazzyrocker** · 03-09-2012, 12:07 PM

Hey thanks to everyone who replied so quickly~

Some more info,I recently had a bone nut installed by a
well known guitar store.They did an outstanding job.
In addition I had personally graphited the nut(still the
best and most economic method in my opinion).

The fact that other musicians are or have had issues with'
archtops is comforting,glad I am not the only one ; )

Having said that I still think it's a great axe in spite of the
issues,the tone you can get out of $500 guitar is unbelievable
(I play through a ULTRASOUND amp).
Hopefully the issue will resolve of its own volition,until then
I will continue to play it and eek out additional advice and responses.

Thnx again and I will appreciate any additional answers or responses~

**progjazzyrocker** · 03-09-2012, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by fauves

Lubricate the nut and even the bridge. Is it sharp on all strings or just a couple ? My arch tops do that more then the solids. Also sometimes go crazy and sharp with humidity changes.

I have been using big bends nut sauce. It's expensive but lasts forever. I have bigsbys on a few to contend with and it really helps even with the nuts properly cut

Its sharp on all the strings.
I already graphited the nut with pencil led/powder.Can I pour nut sauce on top of that as well without doing damage to the nut?

**progjazzyrocker** · 03-09-2012, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

Can you post a pic showing how you wind the string onto the tuner posts?

What Fauves mentions above is often very helpful for this. And a look at the tuner posts is another thing to check. In my opinion.

Chris

The luthier set up the guitar and locked the strings onto the posts.
Sorry I don't have a pic.

**PTChristopher** · 03-09-2012, 12:23 PM

>>> locked the strings onto the posts

OK, can you describe the number (more or less) of turns used on the posts?

A string that is installed so that it locks back itself needs no additional post turns. I use about 1/2 to 1 turn after the lock.

More turns gives you friction on the post. Friction on the post gives you PROGRESSIVE friction on the post. Progressive friction on the post is a prime way to have a string go sharp. The more turns you have on the post, the more opportunity you have for progressive friction.

Page 11 here shows one of many online illustrations of locking a string to the post:

http://benedettoguitars.com/wp-conte...ndwarranty.pdf

Chris

**progjazzyrocker** · 03-09-2012, 12:30 PM

The luthier set it up so there seem to be about
2 or 3 windings around the post themselves.

**davelang** · 03-14-2012, 10:37 AM

Sometimes the guitar goes sharp because the strings are binding on the nut or the saddles. That's why people are suggesting various lubricants.

Another option is to fix the nut / saddles. Even a reputable guitar shop may not have done a 100% perfect job on them.

Maybe they used nut files that are too small for the gauge strings you use. This is quite possible since you're probably using a gauge most rock / country guitarists don't use and the shop probably sees more rock / country guitars than anything else.

For what it's worth I had a similar problem on my ES-125. Took it back to the shop and they said everything was fine. (that's too bad - time to find a new shop!)

So I bought a set of nut files from StewMac that fit my string gauge and touched up the slots on the nut and on the bridge.

Problem mostly solved. Played a show last night, just unpacked the guitar and checked and it's almost in tune.

ymmv

**progjazzyrocker** · 03-14-2012, 10:48 AM

Thnx for ur helpful comments!

**progjazzyrocker** · 03-16-2012, 03:34 PM

Just to elaborate a little more(hope to make any needed adjustments in the future),
it seems I need to stretch and detune the strings before I tune up.If that procedure is
done there really doesn't seem to be an issue with the above mentioned issue.
Would that imply the tuners(they're Grovers)are cheap/defective or that the bridge needs
to be pinned or something else?
Thnx much~

**progjazzyrocker** · 03-16-2012, 08:47 PM

[quote=PTChristopher;209622]

>>> I've read the Gotoh tuners on these are pretty iffy quality maybe a replace may be in order.

In my opinion, tuning problems are pretty much never the tuners.

Really, even truly awful tuners will not be a part of this problem. (Exactly how would an "iffy" tuner result in the OP's problem???) And, this guitar does not have factory-installed awful tuners. These days it is quite difficult to get really awful tuners on a guitar that is not made from green plastic with orange horseshoes painted on it.

'Mercy', as they say. Gotoh puts out a remarkably high quality product line at all price points. Also, I would have sworn that the Epi 175s had chrome Grovers on there??? (But I'm wrong pretty often.)

Oh what the heck, I may as well check: The pics and spec below match the Epi 175's I have seen.

But even if they were Gotoh tuners, I have the opinion that Gotoh tuners are very good in all configurations.

Epiphone - ES-175

More EDIT: Korey-C, It is not my intent to be a jerk here (despite appearances). And maybe I am just flat-out wrong about what a web forum is supposed to be. It happens.

Chris

The tuners do say Grover(chrome) on them.
What in ur opinion may be the culprit in this case?

Thnx much~

**PTChristopher** · 03-16-2012, 08:55 PM

You have Grover Rotomatics. A classic and VERY widely used tuner for many decades. They have been made in Asia since Carter or Reagan was president - if I correctly recall a conversation with the tech guy at Grover. In any case you have Grover tuners made where (and how) they have been made for many, many years.

They are fine, it is not the tuners.

It is not the tuners.

To be a little repetitive: >>> Can you post a pic showing how you wind the string onto the tuner posts?

It is either binding in the nut, far less likely binding in the bridge, or quite possibly a combination of nut friction and (the already mentioned above) progressive friction on the tuner posts.

In my opinion, based on the info so far.

Chris

**davelang** · 03-17-2012, 01:06 PM

Hi! I really think that you've been given the answers to your problem in this thread already. It's hard to make that sentence sound "friendly" on the internet but it is meant to be.

The tuning machines are not what are making your guitar go sharp. Maybe maybe they'd be the reason for it going flat but not sharp.

Here's a thread from the Peterson Tuner discussion forum re: the same problem you're having.

Peterson Tuners Community > Why does my guitar go sharp?

Good luck!

**progjazzyrocker** · 03-19-2012, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

You have Grover Rotomatics. A classic and VERY widely used tuner for many decades. They have been made in Asia since Carter or Reagan was president - if I correctly recall a conversation with the tech guy at Grover. In any case you have Grover tuners made where (and how) they have been made for many, many years.

They are fine, it is not the tuners.

It is not the tuners.

To be a little repetitive: >>> Can you post a pic showing how you wind the string onto the tuner posts?

It is either binding in the nut, far less likely binding in the bridge, or quite possibly a combination of nut friction and (the already mentioned above) progressive friction on the tuner posts.

In my opinion, based on the info so far.

Chris

Thnx for ur reply.

Unfortunately I don't have pics(I have a horrible camera phone
which won't do justice).

I lubed the nut with pencil led/powder.The strings are running
pretty smooth now.Far as I can tell.
The luthier who set it up did only about 1 or 1 and a half windings
on the post after locking them.
BTW,would movement of the floating bridge cause the guitar to go sharp?
Read in an old GP how Steve Howe replaced his bridge on his es-175
and said it would take time for the bridge to get into tune.

It's going to be warm this week,maybe see the possibility that this
whole scenario has been weather related or not.

**PTChristopher** · 03-19-2012, 12:31 PM

>>> Read in an old GP how Steve Howe replaced his bridge on his es-175
and said it would take time for the bridge to get into tune.

Now I hope you do not really take that seriously.

>>> The luthier who set it up did only about 1 or 1 and a half windings
on the post after locking them.

Sounds fine. I use 1/2 to 1 turn max. on my own guitars, but add another turn on other people's guitars to keep them from getting the vapors.

>>> weather related or not

It is the season (VERY early this year in some places) for increased interior humidity. This can have a significant effect.

It's not the tuners.

Sorry, I have programmed a key to type that sentence, and got carried away.

Chris

**progjazzyrocker** · 03-19-2012, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

>>> Read in an old GP how Steve Howe replaced his bridge on his es-175
and said it would take time for the bridge to get into tune.

Now I hope you do not really take that seriously.

>>> The luthier who set it up did only about 1 or 1 and a half windings
on the post after locking them.

Sounds fine. I use 1/2 to 1 turn max. on my own guitars, but add another turn on other people's guitars to keep them from getting the vapors.

>>> weather related or not

It is the season (VERY early this year in some places) for increased interior humidity. This can have a significant effect.

It's not the tuners.

Sorry, I have programmed a key to type that sentence, and got carried away.

Chris

I know Steve Howe is/was pretty knowledgeable about
guitars,I think he was talking about the wood settling,etc.

I hope it's just a weather related issue,that would solve a
great deal of problems.

I don't think it's the tuners according to what I have been
told so far.

No need to apologize,your answers have been very insightful~

**progjazzyrocker** · 03-19-2012, 01:09 PM

Btw,don't know if this makes a difference,this guitar has
the "Floating rosewood base with Tuno-O-Matic™ Bridge."

I don't know how reliable these bridges are in terms of tuning.