The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I play an early '70 Gibson L5 CES that needs a fret job. The frets are just way too flat; there's no buzzing but it sounds dead.
    Like most jazz guitarists I want a warm, smooth tone. Most times I use Thomastik Infeld flatwounds 12 and prefere low action.
    I don't like big frets (I mean big frets Rockers use for bending).
    Any suggestions regarding the type of fretwire for the ultimate jazz tone ?

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  3. #2

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    thats like asking whats the best tasting food

    noone can tell but you...

    I like those big jumbos even though iam not bending

  4. #3

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    I really like medium/jumbo frets. They have a great feel to them. I don't know what they do for tone, but for me, playability is increased.

  5. #4
    Hey guys thanks for your reply !
    fws6 checked your website, wow nice collection ! I'm gettin' hungry
    Rick, I think medium would be o.k. for me too. Refret would increase the playability for sure; playin' chord melody with a lot of changes on too flat frets is tough

  6. #5

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    Maybe just have the same fret type put on as Gibson did originally
    Can't go wrong with that

    Just had a refret done and ended up due to a communication error with
    Stainless Steel jumbo frets
    Woops I thought ........
    But after playing them in they're nice

    bon chance

  7. #6
    Merci beaucoup Pingu,
    I think usual Gibson frets are medium jumbo style, but I'm not sure.
    These Stainless Steel have a longer life span as compared with nickle-silver ones. Don't they*affect your sound, e.g. a bit more bright?

  8. #7

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    I've got Stainless Steel on an F hole Hofner acoustic President
    yes they are bright but not too zingy

    There isn't much difference to normal nickel/silver maybe a tiny bit brighter

    they did need playing in , now they feel very smooth
    esp when bending or doing vibrato
    which is nice on the acoustic .......

    They are harder for the luthier to work so may cost more to put in

  9. #8

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    You may consider gold fretwire, nah it's not real gold more like bronze
    metallergicly speaking. Harder than nickel and work harden as it's played.
    These are the frets on my 2004 Les Paul Supreme.
    On an L-5 I'd bet they'd be pretty cool, any competant luthier
    can get and install em. Another choice.

  10. #9

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    The "gold" fretwire is "EVO" from Jescar. I do not know the metals in it, and I think the formula is proprietary to Jescar anyway.

    Any reasonably aware luthier will be able to get it easily enough. They make it in a "medium jumbo" size.

    If you luther gets the vapors over it - note that it is far easier to work than stainless, but quite durable.

    In my opinion.

    Chris

  11. #10
    Hi Pingu, these F hole Hofner acoustic President guitars were introduced way back in the '50. I remember some very nice ones. Vintage Hofners in the U.S. are rare and often from England or Canada. Selmer distributed the Hofners in the UK.
    Glad we don't have to repete these fretjobs to often Enjoy !

  12. #11
    Hello Teamster, Most times a refretted Gibson has lost its nibs. It looks like your luthier saved the binding nibs or did he also renew the binding ? Looks very nice anyway ! I like the golden frewire idea and will ask to save the binding nibs ! Way back in '69 I played a LP (black beauty); too bad I had to sell it (less gigs due to disco's) Take care and enjoy your axe

  13. #12
    Thanks for the info Chris ! I'll keep it in mind

  14. #13

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    Hi Henkkiken,
    Those Gold frets are standard equipment on the Les Paul Supreme
    Split diamonds on ebony fretboard, like a Johnny Smth or Super 400
    Arched top and back with no access panels. I've heard nib saving can
    add $400 to a refret.


  15. #14

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    >>> I've heard nib saving can
    add $400 to a refret.

    Ooooh, that would be pretty good income for nib preservation.

    In my opinion:

    The nibs are an artifact of the factory workflow that Gibson uses. The binding channel can be cut after the frets are in, which trims the fret ends inboard of the binding.

    I want to stay out of value judgements since many people love their Gibsons and particularly treasure the artifacts.

    In a re-fret, the nibs are a problem because the factory workflow is no longer a cost saver.

    In practice, the playable width of a neck can be noticeably wider with a normal fret end (nibless, as it were), and if this is of value to a player, then a normal (overhanging the binding) re-fret can have noticeable benefits.

    There are two practical ways to end up with nibs after a re-fret:

    - Cut the frets one by one to sit precisely between the nibs. I believe the Pentagon calls this "Internib Optimization", or "IO" for short.

    - Remove the frets and the nibs. Put in new frets cut to the inboard side of the binding. Put in new nibs that fit very tightly to the frets. Shape the new nibs to match the fret ends. "NR&R", or Nib Removal and Replacement in Pentagon jargon.

    The advantage to NR&R is that the nibs can match the profile of the new frets, which are often larger than the old frets.

    The binding and nibs are made from ABS plastic. The new nibs can be attached by several means that melt the new nib into the old binding. So the practical chance of a new nib falling off is essentially zero.

    It does take quite a bit of time either way, but if a guy loves his nibs, then there are ways to keep them.

    In my opinion, it is more likely that an incremental $200 will easily cover the added time for an NR&R job, even in a high cost market area. Of course any local, luthier may charge noticeably more or less for this.

    EVO wire can be roughly double the cost of 18% nickel wire. But it is still a small part of the cost of a fret job.

    Chris
    Last edited by PTChristopher; 02-16-2012 at 04:59 PM. Reason: "IPJ", Improved Pentagon Jargon

  16. #15

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    I don't like nibs.

    First, I can't see the functional advantage.

    Second, if nibs are to be preserved/recreated, a refret job will cost more.

    Third and maybe the most serious, if the fretboard shrinks - which can happen in dry climates such as indoors in cold winters - the fret ends will break the nibs and likely also the binding. Without the nibs, the fret ends will just stick out a bit from the fretboard and can easily be filed flush with the fretboard edge and rounded. I did such job recently. With a flat diamond file and a fret end file from StewMac, it took me about an hour. With nibs, I would have needed a trip to a luthier for some surgery.

    I have a guitar with nibs, and luckily the fretboard doesn't seem to shrink in dry air. But the nibs will have to go at the first refret.

  17. #16
    Woooow teamster, Good lookin' baby !

  18. #17
    Hi Chris, you're an expert ! A friend in CA told me he paid $25 per fret with nib

  19. #18

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    That sounds about right for a high-cost market (NY, CA, etc.), while in Oklahoma you might expect to pay notably less.

    This is not a knock on either market, just the way cost-of-living seems to work.

    The EVO wire would really only add about $10 to the luthiers cost, arguably more like $20 if he had to special order and pay to ship just the 4 feet of wire for one job. This includes the incremental cost for the wire and the time to spec and source it.

    Still all in my opinion.

    Chris

  20. #19

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    Oh, and I'm with oldane for my own guitars - nibless for certain, and for many playability and maintainability reasons.

    But I also have no interest in telling anyone else what they should or should not prefer.

    Chris

  21. #20
    Oldane, if you look at it rationally you're right, but in this case I go by the heart

  22. #21
    This is a pic of the "victim" (made with my cell)

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by henkkicken
    Oldane, if you look at it rationally you're right, but in this case I go by the heart
    Yes, I do see my guitars very rationally. They are first of all tools for making music for me. If they handle that well, it "fills my heart with joy". But it broke my heart when I saw pictures some months ago on this forum of a nice Gibson with cracked, chipped off and bulging fretboard binding which wouldn't have happened if there hadn't been any nibs.

  24. #23
    Oldane, I've been on the road with my 'tools' for years. So I fully understand your point of view. I'm 60 now and this L5 is very special to me. That's why I want to keep it in it's "original" state. I'm not gonna refinish it or have the hardware goldplated again, because those marks and patina show the life whe shared together. But for neck / fretboard i want to stay close to the original look. Regarding all the improvements in the past years I'm trying to find the best fretwire for the music I play
    Last edited by henkkicken; 02-18-2012 at 08:18 AM.

  25. #24

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    >>> i want to stay close to the original look.

    Well depending on where you live, this may be the driest time of year, which is a good time to get this done. If you get the frets done when the FB is at its most swollen (wettest time of the year), then the risk of binding damage later is somewhat greater (no matter how carefully you humidify).

    For wire, 18% nickel will be the most traditional look for certain, and it wears just fine, especially if you keep the crowns fairly broad.

    I did not note the age of your guitar, and I am no Gibson historian or spec. expert anyway. But it is possible that the binding on your FB is an extruded "T" shape with the base of the T extending into a slot in the side of the FB.

    This is arguably another artifact of the whole Gibson workflow, since binding can be very securely attached without the T extension into the FB. But on a Gibson factory fret setup, the extra security of the T shape binding probably helps in the factory work flow, and it makes sure that while the binding cracks at each fret from the "nib" configuration, it is not often seriously detached from the side of the FB.

    These cracks, if present, can also be repaired on the existing binding if your luthier is in the mood - typically by making up a sort of paste from binding and solvent (often acetone, or the mix sold as "lacquer thinner") to fill the cracks. But it is also done by making sharp wedges of binding and gluing them into each crack. The lacquer touch up afterward is pretty easy to do.

    All in my opinion. The view of the person actually doing the work is far more useful.

    Chris
    Last edited by PTChristopher; 02-18-2012 at 12:01 PM.

  26. #25
    Thanks a lot Chris ! I appriciate your reply and advice very much. I'm gonna talk about the job with a luthier this week.