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I didn't know they made flatwound bronze strings. What do they sound like? Are you planning to use then with a standard pickup?
Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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11-20-2012 02:27 PM
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I have no idea how they sound, I've never heard them in action. ;-) Originally Posted by Klatu
I can't even get them locally, though a local store did put in an order for me. I ordered a set through Amazon as well (D'Addario Flattops light gauge).
Thomastick also makes a set with flatwounds except the low E, which is round. It's more expensive of course, and would have to be ordered online.
They are supposed to sound warm and mellow and to minimize string noise--recommended for sliding. I imagine they would be to regular bronze roundwounds as chrome flatwounds are to chrome roundwounds.
Since I'm using a piezo pickup the composition doesn't matter much, as I'm not depending upon an interaction with magnetic coils.
If I survive the holidays I'll try to do a little sound recording to post.
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I've been using D'Addario Flat Tops (12s & 13s) for years now -- I absolutely love them. They aren't flatwound, though - they're "ground wound" - but because it's bronze, it's really slick and there's no finger squeak. The low E and A don't burnish down quite as slick as the G and D, but still, watch what you're doing and you'll never squeak. I think they're the best thing to happen to archtops in a long time.
I should say, I don't amplify my archtops, but these will do fine with any acoustic pickup, I should think.
The Thomastik "Spectrums" are also very good, though expensive and a bit short-lived, compared to the D'Addarios. These have a true flatwound G, a ground-wound (burnished) D and A, and then a HUGE round-wound E that is essentially silk and bronze. The great thing about these strings is the low tension. I'd go ahead and get 13s, as they exert about as much tension as a set of normal 12s, but you get a chunkier sound. The treble strings are gold-plated (thus the $35 price tag?)
Mellow-wise, I'd say the Thomastiks are mellower than the D'Addarios, just from the low tension. I think all the wound strings in the TEs have a silk wrap inside, so they're very nice. But that roundwound G goes dead pretty fast for some people. If you have acidic perspiration, you might want to just skip them altogether; my hands (thank goodness) don't sweat (they freeze), so it isn't a problem. Reviewers at Amazon, etc. curse that G string for going dead "in one day" -- but this hasn't been my experience.
kj
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Is it possible to use the D'Addario Flattops or Thomastik Spectrum in an Archtop with floating magnetic pickup?
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I've never tried that, so I don't know for sure. My archtops are strictly acoustic, except for an Ibanez Artcore, and I use Chromes on that. Originally Posted by Jazz_175
When I said they should work with any acoustic pickup, I had in mind piezos, K & K types, etc. - sorry about that.
The Flat Tops are phosphor bronze. I *think* the Spectrums are as well. My guess is that they WOULD work. Eastman guitars with floating pickups come strung with bronze strings, unless I'm mistaken. They have no piezos, just the floater. The Flat Tops are about $10 online, about $15 in stores. I wouldn't buy the Spectrums until I knew for sure, as they're $20 - $30.
kjLast edited by Kojo27; 11-21-2012 at 11:16 AM.
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Bronze strings are bronze (which is not magnetic) wrapped around a steel core. A traditional pickup (e.g., DeArmond), would work as long as it had adjustable pole pieces to account for the difference in megnetic fields and therefore signal strength among the strings.
Modern pickups are obviously designed for steel or nickel-wound strings, which are fully magnetic, and so would not work "off the shelf" without a lot of fettling (adjusting pole pieces).
Here's what Ken Parker posted about bronze strings for his archtops:
"Bronze wound strings have a much better acoustic tone. They sound louder, warmer, more complex, and, well, just better. However since the bronze wrapping has no magnetic properties, the magnetic output of the wound strings is very low in comparison to the plain strings, which are 100% steel, and therefore 100% magnetic. This is why a specially constructed pickup is required to evenly balance the outputs of the strings."
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Doesn't Parker just rebuild a garden variety Fishman magnetic acoustic pickup for his guitars?
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Actually the Benedetto Ebonova Web Page says:"Designed to be compatible with steel, nickel and bronze strings."
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Yep. Originally Posted by Spook410
I jury-rig a Fishman Rare Earth into my Gypsy guitar with standard silvered copper wound strings (same magnetic field as bronze strings) and the balance is really nice. I prefer playing through a standard electric guitar amp (PRRI) and the sound is sort of a cross between and an acoustic and an electric, so it's pretty bright, but with some decent "meat" on the trebles. It doesn't sound like any humbucker/single coil/P90/etc I've hear -- it's its own beast.
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What is the little mic setup that John jorgensen uses on his gypsy jazzbox ? Saw him at NAMM a couple of years back and his guitar sounded great. Of course he can probably make a cigar box guitar sound good... If I recall correctly, he is a Schertler endorser...
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I used to have some really nice Martins and Collings in my DADGAD days. Beautiful sounds that I tried everything to amplify. No matter what I did, everything special was lost plugged in; could have been a cheap Yamaha. Finally decided that any mic sounded better than any onboard system. If that was not possible then I just used a Tele.
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I actually agree with this but with a caveat. In my swing 6-piece, when I can (i.e. when there's a decent sound person) I use a mic for FOH and a pickup through an amp for monitoring purposes. I don't get to hear the acoustic tone loud, but the audience can, and that's more important. I'm mainly rhythm in a drummerless ensemble, so the amp allows everyone on the bandstand to be able to hear me without competing in the monitors with the vocals. Originally Posted by Encinitastubes
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something like the DPA clip-on mic seems like the ideal solution.
A soundboard transducer such as the K&K would probably be the next best option.
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MISTAKE: The Thomastik strings for archtops are called "Plectrum" - not "Spectrum." The latter is a regular bronze (or phos. bronze) string. The "Plectrum" strings are for squeakless playing (or almost.) Both sets are suggested retail $35.95, however. Going price is $18.95 and up. Originally Posted by Jazz_175
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Update on Barcus Berry pickup--as mentioned the pickup is flat and the archtop is, well, arched, so what I did was to saw a piece of mahogany the same size as the pickup (3/8 x 2") and 1/8" thick, paint it black, and superglue it to the bottom of the pickup. I then sanded it to the surface of the guitar (just like sanding a bridge) and attached it with 2-sided tape.
I have found a good acoustic-y sound using my Fender SCXD--I like the clean channel as opposed to the Acoustasonic emulation, which is too dry. I turn the treble down ALL THE WAY and keep the bass at 5. I also have a Fishman ProEq 2 preamp with the piezo (input) gain at 50%, bass and middle at 5, treble slid down a notch and brilliance slider ALL THE WAY down. Any treble on the amp or with the brilliance slider leads to a lot of extraneous string noise and a harsh, thin, trebly sound.
I also got D'Addario bronze flattops 12 gauge which I am still evaluating--seem to be a nice warm sound, definitely less string noise when amplified than the rounds.
This is pretty much the sound I was looking for--warm, vintage, with faster decay and more definition than a magnetic pickup. To my ears it really does sound like my guitar unplugged, only louder.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that all surface pickups are pretty much the same, what's really important to shaping the sound is the preamp. I also think you can get a darn good sound for jazz from a regular tube amp.Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 11-28-2012 at 07:58 PM.
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Doctor Jeff,
I think you're probably right, about the surface piezos. They all have the problem of being too dry and harsh without a lot of compensation.
My personal view is that it ought to be possible to invent transducers that don't have this problem....But they won't, because they're making too much money selling preamps and other gizmos.
Am I just being cynical?
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The thing with piezos is you have to properly treat the signal which most internal preamps are not able to do.
I avoided all internal preamps on my acoustics and just use a small buffer pedal with 18v internal voltage and very high input impedance (10M). That and a passive volume pedal after the buffer (to have volume control which you loose without preamps) has been perfect... You need both high voltage and high impedance to solve the piezo issues. It's also good to use a cable as small as possible before the buffer.
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I wonder if anyone uses internal mics? The way some people do with flattops.
For example, there's the MiniFlex, (which is I guess is too big to slip through f-holes):
However, L.R. Baggs has just released the Lyric, a small internal mic that might be able to fit in an archtop:
Lyric Mic System| LR Baggs
I heard Metheny has (or had) some kind of small internal lavalier mic inside his guitars, blended with the mag pickups.
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This is a thread that could run and run and its a everlasting discussion point.
Acoustic mics feedback (and pick up the drummer!), piezo sounds tight, magnetic PUs sound like electric guitars.
Generally I think a great source of loud and good acoustic sound comes from the experiences of the Bluegrass and Country players who need to get some volume into their live gigs alongside a good acoustic tone. Generally they'll often be seen standing up to a mic, but a lot of payers are now realising the foolproof way to amplify is onboard PUs and a good EQ - the mic thing is just fraught with issues of how close do you stand, where do you stand, and you are pretty much at the mercy of the sound guy on the desk.
Check out the set up of someone like Jim Hurst - a respected sideman and session player in Nashville - he told me he used to do the mic thing, but now, with the new PU systems, he only plays live with a mixture of inboard mic/magnetic PUs. He says its worryproof,reliable, and an acceptable sound for the audience, given its a live performance. He still uses mics in the studio - but that's hugely different to live work at volume.
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I'm glad this thread resurfaced. The video of the MiniFlex is truly impressive. I particularly like the model where the mic can be attached to the guitar without any structural modifications to the instrument. While not the most aesthetically pleasing of solutions, it would allow the user to use it on several different guitars. Originally Posted by RyanM
I wonder if anyone uses internal mics? The way some people do with flattops.
For example, there's the MiniFlex, (which is I guess is too big to slip through f-holes):
However, L.R. Baggs has just released the Lyric, a small internal mic that might be able to fit in an archtop:
Lyric Mic System| LR Baggs
I heard Metheny has (or had) some kind of small internal lavalier mic inside his guitars, blended with the mag pickups.
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I am thinking to put an acoustic pickup on my archtop.
I want to have both the acoustic and the electric sound.
The guitar is The Loar LH-301T and the pickup that i think to go for is "shadow JW 2-G PU System preamp with Nanoflex pickup.
Whaat is your opinion about the pickup and the customize?
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A few of us here have done something similar with other brands. We have a thread on using the K&K definity (which is what I use) where you can find lots of info.
Users spook and xuoham also use acoustic pickups with their archtops. I have a stereo jack in mine, where I can connect a balanced 1/4" plug that splits the signal. One side to a tech 21 paradriver, the other to an LRBaggs paracoustic DI. From there to a fishman loudbox amp.
There's also a couple of options from Radial that can switch or mix both signals to taste.
Sorry I have no insight on the particular pickup you mention, but the same principles apply to any combination of magnetic and acoustic PU.
K
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A bit confused on that Shadow pickup. It appears the preamp part requires cutting a hole in the guitar to install. That and the nanoflex pickup the preamp supports is made for undersaddle installation on a flat top guitar. As far as I can tell, you can't install this in your Loar at all.
Last edited by Spook410; 01-19-2015 at 10:03 PM.
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JJB Electronics transducer pickups work as good if not better than K&K and they are so affordable.
The owner, Jessie, is very reliable and helpful. You can also just ask for a double disk transducer with your desired cable length and no jack if you already have your own switchcraft stereo jack, it will be even cheaper.
The tedious part is to super-glue the disks through the f-holes (wear vinyl gloves unless you wanna spend the night sleeping with your fingers stuck in the f-hole). I advise to first try with double sided tape until you find the best location.
Wiring a stereo jack is not very difficult. By nature a transducer pu will hum when through a regular electric guitar volume pot at zero. Though i use it mainly as an "almost" off and on "switch" i have great results having a tone pot instead of a volume pot. Best is a cheap tiny ceramic .022uf cap and a A curve pot.
Also, another thing with transducers is that there has to be one or two resonant peak frequencies that have to be tamed with a parametric EQ, it seems unavoidable where ever you glue the disks and what ever your guitar top is made of.
I have surprisingly good results mixing the magnetic pu and the double disk transducer into a Zoom A3, which i solely use for merging the two sources and using the para EQ on the transducer source.
It also has a decent feedback suppressor which comes in handy with an easily feedbacking archtop.
I personally much much prefer a transducer to a piezo thing in the saddle or bridge, because a transducer also picks up some acoustic qualities of the guitar, not just the strings. Percussion on the body is also picked up, if that suits you.
Downside: it picks up everything. Squeaks, squeeeeks, rubs, sneeze, etc... i use nanoweb Elixirs, they sound great and greatly minimize finger squeak. For the thumb rubbing against the neck and doing the cuica, nothing beats baby powder, imo.
You could do a search with "JJB" or "Yunzhi", there is a bit of info to scoop.
Good Luck !
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Hey Kosteva..
I use a K&K Definity on one archtop and a K&K Pure Archtop (just like the 2 transducer JJB Xuoham mentioned) on another. The Pure Archtop is better and IMHO is a good solution for a real acoustic sound. However, while not particularly difficult, it is a bit harder to install. The Definity is cheap and easy and with EQ sounds quite good. Also, both Nosoyninja and Xuoham have posted very good sounding recordings so there's an opportunity to hear what these pickups sound like.
Not a big fan of under saddle piezo pickups or custom bridges. I have piezo's on flat top guitars and even with extra electronic help like a Fishman Aura system, they still pretty much quack like a duck. In flat tops I like the K&K pickups but also the Sunrise and Schertler soundhole (AG6 w/mic) pickups. I toyed with the idea of a finger rest mount for the Schertler for an archtop but it's too deep.
With all of these solutions I use a preamp (DTAR Solstice but there are many good choices) to get from the guitar to a Schertler Jam 150.
Of course, with the change in the Swiss Franc I guess Schertler stuff is going to get pricey.Last edited by Spook410; 01-20-2015 at 07:23 PM.
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