-
Originally Posted by Patrick2
-
08-18-2011 06:54 PM
-
Originally Posted by Vihar
Last edited by Patrick2; 08-18-2011 at 07:04 PM.
-
+1
live and let live i say, including those of us that either can or struggle to afford an instrument of our dreams-one that is not only a joy to play and hear, but one that makes you smile just to look at it
-
Originally Posted by elinfootOriginally Posted by Vihar
My Loar LH-700 is *SO* freaking loud, and so full of natural reverb and beautiful, sonorous tones (even though it's still green!) -- and I paid $1200 for it. I've played several of those outrageously-priced boutique archtops, and they simply do NOT sound or play any better, imho. Blindfold a veteran archtop player, put a Loar 700 in his hands, and I guarantee you he wouldn't know it didn't cost $8,000. How could he? How? They're almost exactly like a 1925 L-5, w/same wood (or better), compensated wooden bridge/saddle, buttery action, if that's what you want, and listen to the YouTube video above! I go to dreamguitars.com and listen to Al Petteway playing a $32,000 Ribbekke archtop -- and I swear, it doesn't sound this good.
Loars and Eastmans are hand-carved, too! So, why is the Ribbekke $32,000? What's the big $30,000 difference? If anyone thinks the boutique builders don't use jigs and templates and every short-cut they can think of, think again. I do not want to pay Mr. Ribbekke a small fortune just because he makes fewer guitars! Now this *is* approaching snob appeal. If that's why people buy them.
But yes - as long as people keep paying such prices, builders will be lining up to charge as much.
kj
-
Originally Posted by Patrick2
It is true that an archtop takes much more work and skill than a solid body. It is also true that detailed inlay work takes a lot of work and skill. It is therefore no wonder that carved archtops are more expensive than solid bodies.
That said, there are very fine carved archtops out there wihch can be had new from the luthier for around §4-6000 (including inlay work and fine workmanship). Jim Triggs and Mark Campellone are two fine luthiers who have chosen to offer their guitars at that price point. And then there are other archtops which cost §20-30000. The attention to detail may be even higher than in Jim's and Mark's instruments, and the wood may be even more pretty and perfect, but they are not necessarily better playing or sounding.
The thing with archtops is, that they are at the bottom musical instruments for making music, but on top of that they are (sometimes) also pieces of art. Sometimes so much that the owners do not dare use them for normal day to day playing though they are utterly beautiful to look at in the living room just like paintings on the wall.
Who can say what the correct price is for art? It's an old truth that "the right price is the price the market will bear". A maker making a few §30000 guitars each year may have a good income if the times and the market are with him, but it is also risky. If the times and his luck changes, he can not just step down in price level - that would be percieved as he has "sold out" and has become "commercial" (which he was all the time to a certain degree). Makers who charge §4-6000 for an archtop will have a better chance to stay in buisiness also when the times gets rougher. A broader selection of instruments also has that effect. These days Jim Triggs makes more mandolins to the bluegrass people than guitars to the jazz world. The exception is Bob Benedetto, who with success has managed to change a one man top end workshop into a small factory, which also offers more moderately priced guitars, but in his case, in addition to being a very talented luthier he is also a very adept businessman.
-
Originally Posted by Kojo27
I love guitars, all kinds of them, and appreciate the skills of a good luthier. I'm also glad that they can make a living on it - if people buy stuff at that price, it would be silly not to sell stuff for that much. That still doesn't change the fact that most of those boutique guitars are way overpriced.
I'm sorry for thinking it was obvious for everyone else too.
-
To Kojo and Vihar; I often find myself wondering why this subject of "way over priced" guitars . . mostly arch tops . . comes up every so often. As a player and collector of some of the higher end arch tops, I also find myself a little perturbed . . maybe even angered by the perception that those of us who can afford to . . and choose to buy high end arch tops, are snobs or show off-ish. To Kojo; as to your blind fold comparisons . . blind fold a man and let him ride as a passenger in the back seat of a Huyndai . . then a Mercedes . . for 40 or 50 miles and he probably couldn't tell the difference in that either. If offered either for free Kojo . . which would you chose?? A $1,200 Loar can definitely get a competent jazz player through a gig . . or gigs just as well as an $8,000 Gibson L5CES. Is the player who choses and can afford the L5 a snob? If offered either for free Kojo . . . which would you chose?? A Holiday Inn can provide a traveling business man a very comfortable evening's rest just as weel as a 4 star Hilton or Hyatt. Is the more successful business person who choses the 4 star hotel a snob? If offered a free evening at either, Kojo . . which would you chose?? That list could go on forever.
People like myself have devoted a great deal of our time, energy and talents to becoming successful enough, so that if we care to indulge ourselves in what we consider to be some of the finer things in life, we can do so. It's usually the people who can't afford much more than a $1,200 Loar, who coincidently can't seem to justify the price of a high end arch top to themselves. To some . . even those who can afford ANY guitar in the world, a guitar is just a tool of the trade and they couldn't care less if it's a $1,200 loar or a $12,000 boutique built guitar. To others, it's functional art . . . . and they collect/play the guitars for reasons other than their "snob appeal". Would you say that a wealthy individual, who is also a hobby driven jazz player, who might choose a $1,200 Loar is a cheap skate penny pinching spend thrift because he didn't choose the $12,000 to gig with . . . even thought the price is totally inconsequential to him?? I wouldn't.
Each of you should probably consider how your words and/or your labeling of people might affect and offend those of us whom you reference.
As to the matter of "way over priced" . . as each of you have stated . . the market will determine that. Peace man!!
-
Originally Posted by Patrick2
-
My teacher's long time best friend was the former CEO and President of Fender Guitars, who told him, that the total average production time for their factory-made solid body electric guitars (i.e., Strats, Teles, etc) was, from start to finish, three hours and thirty minutes.
3:30! On the one hand, that's not a lot of time. On the other hand, the production process has become a science, ridiculously efficient.
-
I don't begrudge luthiers for charging what they do for hand carved instruments. I'd bet there are few builders who are getting rich making fine instruments and if the public is buying them than the price is acceptable though out of reach for many.
-
Originally Posted by Vihar
Heck, don't be sorry -- with every bit of due respect to "everyone else," I think some need to ask themselves why such guitars are being sold. Are they that much better? No way, imo. We're talking archtops, now. The prices of flattop guitars, for example, with some exceptions, are more in line with what they're worth. I would love to have a Collings 000 or 0M, but I do think they're over-priced. Martin has an "authentic" dreadnought, D-28, made *exactly* (well, almost) to pre-war specs, and they get $29,999 for it. Really! What was it P. T. Barnum said? There's a *what* born every minute? Oh yeah - a guy who falls prey to the delusion that he can *buy* musicianship. If his guitar cost $32,000, think how good he must be.
Of course, some world-class guitarists are, somehow, rolling in money and $30,000 to them is like $3 to you and me. They don't even ask the price, don't even care. I don't begrudge them their costly guitars, but I do question whether they got what they paid for. Martin & Co. (et al) know this - so why NOT make a "D-100" or "D-50" and put as much abalone on it as possible without being legally forced to say it has an "abalone top" -- and sell it for $100,000? _Someone_, they KNOW, is going to buy the 100 or 50 guitars they make, at a hundred Gs a piece.
I hope nobody thinks this Martin, which really exists (and C. F. Martin himself will present it to you if you buy one), is going to play or sound 50 times better than a $2,000 HD-28 -- cuz it won't. But Martin (and Taylor, and Santa Cruz, Collings, et al) know that one of these customers is born, if not every minute, then every few weeks -- so they'd be foolish not to take their money!
The same principle applies with archtops, although with non-famous names ("Boaz" and "Bozo"), I think a slightly different dynamic comes into play. I could be dead wrong, but I think one reason "boutique" archtops have a market is because (think about it) - look at the posts here on this forum. Probably 95% of the players here are EDUCATED and really SMART. To blow well over jazz changes takes a good amount of brains. And a great amount of industriousness and perseverance and self-confidence, delaying of gratification, etc.
I posit, then, that such people likely pass their time in the upper income brackets -- and, therefore, that they might comprise a good chunk of the wealthiest of all guitar hobbyists, semi-pros, and pros. Thus, perhaps, a demand for $32,000 guitars is born. Maybe. Just a thought. I know it's true that scores of one-man archtop-building businesses thrive, all across America and other parts of the world. It's about *perceived* value. It's about tokens of status; it's about simply being able to buy whatever damn guitar one wants, price-be-damned. I'd love to have the Bozo guitar at dreamguitars.com -- sounds awesome with Al Petteway playing it. It's gorgeous. It's $23,685. Does it sound *that* much better than an Eastman of 17" and a 25.5" scale? No! What do you actually get, that's demonstrable, for your extra $20,000? I don't know. It's pretty. Lookee: Dream Guitars- Fine Handcrafted Instruments, Vintage Guitars, Classical Guitars, Electric Guitars, Mandolins in Asheville, North Carolina
There's a guitar, a "Samois" -- an archtop Selmer -- yes... trying to 'word-of-mouth' its way into the United States. Steve Perry at Gianna Violins (Friendsville, TN) had ONE. He might still have it. It's beyond description. Steve's buddy George is a champion flatpicker and fingerpicker, and he proclaimed, "It's probably the best acoustic guitar, period." George has played a Bozo. How much for the Samois? Last quote from Steve was either $1750 or $1550. It blows the Bozo away. But there are guitarists who wouldn't "stoop" to playing a $1750 guitar! Is this snobbishness after all? Jeez, I don't know. Go to dreamguitars.com and listen to Al Petteway play all those 'mortgage-your-house' guitars. (Click on "media".) Al could make a cigar box sound great. But these are great guitars. Are they worth the price, though? Or do the builders sell them at such prices because they don't need many customers (just the right ones) to score a heck of a great living? Rhetorical stuff for ya. : )
Here's the Samois. It will break out your windows:
Comments?Last edited by Kojo27; 08-19-2011 at 10:34 AM.
-
What Have I started??
Although I completely apreciate the beauty of these guitars ,I'm pretty much in the guitar as functional tool camp. I have this sort of debate with a (amazing)guitar playing friend of mine who's really into PRS guitars which are also mega bucks to buy. My view is if you compare a £500 to one that's £3000, are you really getting £2500 more guitar with the more expensive one in terms of feel,playability,sound. Looks is where it'll become more expensive with rarer exotic woods and long build time for hand built guitars. My friends view is:You could get run over by a bus tomorrow,why not just save up and get it if you want one.
I remember when I bought my (at the time) £400 PRS SE Custom. I felt really guilty about spend 'so much' on myself. Saying that,if I had the money I would buy an expensive guitar and I'd put up with a bit of guilt. I would use it as an instrument though and not hang it on the wall like a piece of art.
-
Originally Posted by Vihar
If you "don't see what so hard to get about it" . . . just go back to your original reply to the OP's question of why arch tops are so expensive. You simply stated . . "because snobs are willing to pay the price". It seems that you've changed your tune a little since you were aptly called out on that reply. I'm done with this subject!! Have a nice day.
-
in reading this very typical debate "why is such and such soooo much $$"
i think there are several factors at play
the first and foremost is tha price is about market-what people will pay, and
fender takes 3+ hours and someparts- they sell for a great deal becuase th e company has worked to brand itself , have a reputation, a certain quality and status product etc-its got nothing to do with material and labor ie COST -thats HOW profits are made-gibsons biggest profit bread and butter is the Les Paul
second, as a guy that competes with national professionals for the service i provide, i can absolutely tell you all that i have personally seen work that sells for twenty time what i charge, and it is nto simply less, its wrong-but nationals have a credibility as well as when you chose such and such-no one can doubt your judgment-theres a "presumption of legitimacy"- sort of the emperors new clothes-but.....at somepoint those entities earend the reputation and market-so you may indeed get equal talent and quality for a different price-its the old idea of volume versus margin -or whatever
third-while there may be hair splitting in terms of a 34 super 400 and a manzer replica (or whatever you choose to compare ) there are factors , often small , incremental, that indeed merit geometric pricing-we are not talking simply a utilitarian tool (which i think is the premise) -this is why not all wines cost the same-and why would anyone want a mechanical watch instead of a digital in terms of utility
beyond material, details, finish, inlay, and IMHO very very much woods-there is aesthetic-thats why a Louis Vuitton purse with a few bits of leather and plastic costs 200 times its Target equivalent
if this offends your senses -it probably should-but there is a market (or was.....) and that all there is
the car analogy is apt-means of transportation -or more
as for guitars-im always leery of generalizations-since ther are so many factors that affect sound-i think that what you might get is that boutique builders account for this and factories do note
and finally, sometimes you just decide its something you love and want-ONLY for YOUR OWN reasons-i think we can all think of something we dont like that has sold a great deal and we wonder -what are those people thinking?-well they're thinking differently than you do and thats all there is to it
i buy certain make clothing, and shoes, -made from material i like-several times the cost that similar items are available at dept stores-why? because i think i look better, i think others that have an eye can tell, its says a lot about me, and im willing to pay for all of these perceptions-i could simply cover myself in anohter manner, but its a bigger deal to me than that-i don tthink the guitar thing is that far off from things like clothes or other stuff for which anyone has a particular love or appreciation
and from this computer screen
frankly i dont think its Patrick that loves to argue........................or otherwiseLast edited by stevedenver; 08-19-2011 at 06:11 PM.
-
Originally Posted by Patrick2
My response, Patrick2, is similar to Vihar's. With all due respect to you, I think it would behoove you to understand and begin applying to your life the fact that you *choose* to become "perturbed" and "angered" and "affected" and "offended" at others' words. Let it slide - it's just someone else's opinion! Judging from your words above, it appears that you value Vihar's, and my, opinion of you over your own opinion of you!
Too many of us have been taught to value others' opinions that way. What will people think!? Very unhealthy, Patrick. Keep in mind that you don't have an "anger" button on your chin, or wherever, that Vihar, or I, or anyone, can push and "make" you become angry -- or offended. You ALWAYS choose emotions like these. And in saying this, I swear to you, I'm *not* trying to "make" you feel embarrassed, or condescended to, and I'm not lecturing. I say this only because so many have never considered the truth in this, and it's fundamental to being a happy (or happier) person. Next time you find yourself about to say, or think, something like, "You make me SO mad!" - STOP. Tell yourself, "I am choosing to become angry here. I can choose not to do so. I can respect my own opinion of myself, love myself, give peace to myself, change the atmosphere of this encounter, and have a better day."
Read _Your Erroneous Zones_ by Wayne Dyer. It's short and about this one concept. Published in 1976 or 77, it has never gone out of print. This book changed my life forever, for the better, when my mom made me read it at age 17.
If everyone who had, say, $32,000 to blow would join some effort to buy copies of that book and distribute them to graduating high-school seniors (with the $500 reward it would take to get most seniors just to read the damned thing) - wow. What a healthier world this could lead to.
Now: honest-to-goodness, Patrick2: I'm delighted that you have the guitars you like! But for clarified thoughts on "snobbery" and guitar-buying, etc., see my next post. I'm separating these two on purpose.
kjLast edited by Kojo27; 08-20-2011 at 04:20 PM.
-
Originally Posted by Kojo27
-
Patrick, I never called you a snob, but I gotta say, you do protest almost too much.
I don't believe I called anyone a snob. My first comment to Vihar was, "Vihar, I wouldn't call people who buy expensive archtops "snobs," but in a very real way, you're right."
Vihar is right in that the prices of many archtops are "so bloody high" because the people who build them and sell them know that someone will pay them that much. And these luthiers aren't deaf: they *must* know that such prices are not in line with the relative utility of the guitars. People who have studied no more than Marketing 101 should know that the price of something is rarely determined by its real worth. This is a very simple fact, and if you choose to feel bothered by that, it's all your own problem.
-
Is'nt all the above called 'highjacking the ops thread' ?
Not sure why the protagonists seem to get so heated. Freedom of choice, etc.
Chill, guys.
-
Originally Posted by Kojo27
-
It's kind of painful to see Kojo trying to explain his heart out to convince a now obvious troll.
-
Originally Posted by Kojo27
Apologies kojo .. .that was vihar's post . . (number 15) . . not yours. Excuse my mistake. Peace man!!
-
Has anyone here ever met a rich luthier? I don't think they exist.
Once you calculate the hours put into a hand crafted archtop you realize the people who build them aren't getting rich.
-
Political posts deleted.
-
I'm on both sides of this debate. I can afford a guitar in the $10k range. However, I have never spent more than $6k, and this is because at that price, the value for my dollar hits what I consider a point of significantly diminishing returns in terms of the instrument's musical qualities.
Note that I said "musical." I believe that the price of extra-musical qualities like aesthetics and exclusivity climbs nearly endlessly from there. Some people are willing to pay for those things; some pay for them to extremes. But I wouldn't call them snobs. You know what? I judge a guitar player based on how well s/he plays the toys, be they expensive or not.
So I admire a cat like like Metheny who built a career on that beat to sh*t 175, or Bickert and his Tele. I also admire a guy who posts on TGP who owns several boutique 7 string archtops, is clearly making money outside of music, but is a smoking hot and tasteful finger style player. All good.
I'll sum up my current attitude this way: The more costly guitars I try and/or own, the less I feel that one needs costly guitars. Isn't that interesting?
-
Originally Posted by rpguitar
nicely said-and civily too
Has anyone played or had a Supro Amulet ?
Today, 04:44 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos