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Is anybody using, or would you consider using, percussion tracks or automated drums (machine, not on a laptop) as accompaniment in a live, solo gig? What do you/would you use?
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04-11-2011 08:32 PM
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I too am interested in answers to this.
Originally Posted by woyvel
Personally, I'd rather be inclined towards a laptop. I've always wondered how it'd be to use Ableton Live for drum tracks - being loop based, it could be potentially convincing. But, as you mention 'in a solo setting' (same situation here), I've a feeling one'd need some sort of foot controller to change clips. Which could prove to be limiting, and even then it'd take experience to work freely with.
Mind, those are just thoughts, I've never actually done this (not enough dough).Last edited by CGKnight; 04-12-2011 at 07:03 AM.
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I've used a drum machine made by the Boss company. All I really wanted was a machine that had a variety of beats with a volume and a speed control as well as a pedal port that will allow me to start and stop the machine with my foot switch. The ones I've found recently have so many bells and whistles that they become over complicated and difficult to use. I knew a duo (bass and guitar) who used a machine that also had a fill control. Unfortunately, I don't know what brand it was. Once I got used to the machine and figured it out, I really liked it. It was like using a metronome but with a good beat behind it.
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I know some guys here that use the Alesis SR16. It has the capability of 2 footswitches. One for start/stop and the other for fills.
Their "band" plays at the nursing homes, get togethers etc., they play country music, french music, no jazz but it works well for them.
If anyone here owns or buys the SR16, I have a set of tutorial cds I got from Alesis for the SR16. It was from a seminar that they held and recorded. I called them and they sent me a copy, it was nothing you could purchase from them or anywhere else.
So, if anyone would want a copy, I'd be glad to send you one.
Good luck
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I played guitar in a guitar/bass duo for years and I used an SR16, set up like you said. We moved on from it after a couple of years to sequences, but it was great for that-just have a little list with song titles, tempo and patch number and you're golden.
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Yeah, I still have my old Alesis SR16, though I don't think I've used it in over a decade. The two footswitches were easy to work with. I never thought of using it in a jazz context, though. (I used it for rock songs way back when. By the way, I saw Tony Joe White---"Polk Salad Annie"---at the old Rock'N'Bowl in New Orleans about 10 years ago and it was just him a and a drummer, no bass, no second guitar, nothing. I'd never seen a guitar / drum duo before. Hot night.)
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I don't play live (anymore) but have a very live-centric setup for guitar which involves a sequencer, synths, and a looping pedal. A simple drum machine will work fine if you can program your own changes and store them. In my case i have an MPC1000 (sampler / sequencer), which isn't as simple, but is the same idea.
One other thing to consider is just recording your drum track into your phone or into a foot pedal (like the Boss RC50), or field recorder etc. so you are just playing back a track, which sounds like really all you need. If you don't have a source for those sounds like a DAW, then this probably isn't an option.
All of the previous suggestions will work fine, i just wanted to throw that out there as an option.Last edited by spiral; 04-12-2011 at 07:04 PM.
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It sucks royally that the music economy has been so bad for musicians, for so long, that we even have to discuss this. The technology is phenomenal. But, as musicians, isn't that what we're all competing against? Technology is actually taking our worth as musicians away from us. When they perfect the software that makes guitar players replacable, and every other musician buys it, so they don't have to hire a real musician, then you'll see where I'm coming from. There is way less work for musicians today, and it's all because of technology. Beware. It's like karaoke. I'm also aware that musicians like me will do whatever it takes to eat.
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 04-12-2011 at 04:03 PM.
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Rants aside, my dance hall band used an SR16 several times to save a gig when the drummer was sick and no sub was available. Our song list was annotated with the pattern number and bpm, and thank god we were prepared for those times when we had no choice. it helped that our rhythm guitarist/singer had used one a lot for small solo gigs.
Since then, he has purchased an SR18, which we found less intuitive and more hip-hop oriented, but we still use it for rehearsals and practices when our live drummer (who is the girls' basketball coach for a local high school) can't make it.
Since I now have a relationship with a lady who is taking drum lessons from a local jazz whiz, I have less use than formerly for a drum machine...but they saved our butt more than once on paid gigs.
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I was wondering how it might go over, figuring it's just me and something setting the mood going "tss.t-t-tss-t-t". I ran across a Yamaha drum machine at a pawn shop ($12) and I've found it actually does a nice job. Good for practice, but also would allow for some live improv when solo, without altering tempo and music style. But is the idea too cheesy in a small atmosphere?
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I have an ancient (by digital standards) Yamaha RX250 which was the first digital drum machine. Cumbersome to program, and only 8-bit samples (the cowbell and high hat, especially, have a totally unnatural decay) but it gives a really cool feel to the right material. I have used it on recordings where I programmed a stereo drum track, added another track using the manual pads (hand claps and cow bell) and overlaid another track of mic'd tambourine. The result was a killer percussion track that sounded like a Dixieland drummer mic'd with a Radio Shack $19.95 special, but it fits the song like a glove.
Obviously I'm no purist -- my goal is MUSIC, which springs from your imagination. I'd hesitate to try to replicate it at a live gig, but, hell, that's a whole other can of worms.
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Can anyone tell me if it is worth updating from a SR16 to a SR18 . thanks .
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I greatly prefer the SR16. A band mate I have played with for about 10 years has owned both. The SR16 is more appropriate for more traditional (i e, non-hip hop) material and easier to find patterns and fills on. Another friend and I did a lot of recording using his SR16, and I really liked the ease of use.
In other words, the SR18 isn't really an upgrade, but a change (perhaps, for some, for the better). They are two different animals.
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I don't and won't, but I don't hate on the cats that do.
I have an old SR-16 though, and I think it would work nicely for the application talked about here. Lots of beleivable drum sounds...I just think the crash cymbals sound weird...
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Thanks for prompt replies guys ......hb
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Actually, compared to older machines it set a new standard. I have an ancient (ca 1985) Yamaha drum machine that has 8-bit sampling. Talk about weird cymbals....
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Drum machines have no soul!
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I've known a few drummers who had souls, and they were essentially wasted on them. Originally Posted by Norman931
Drum machines have no soul!
A drum machine is a tool. Use it with soul or not: it's your choice.
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My last post was not meant to incite a flame war; I just happen to be a human drummer speaking up for my kind. Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
Listen to Buddy Rich, Louie Bellson, Danny Seraphine, Steve Smith, et al. A machine can never be that musical. I suppose a drum machine could be an aid to solo performance, though a sequencer probably would work better.
Peace, brothers!
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As it happens, I paid for percussion lessons for my lady friend after hearing her play tambourine with me and some friends one evening. The teacher is a former Nashville studio drummer and is a joy to watch and listen to. The lady has a natural talent and her teacher invites her to sit in on conga/djembe/whatever's not being played at their "Jazz on the Patio" sets at the local hotel. She is now playing congas, bongos, tambourine, washboard, afuche cabasa, cowbell, maracas and guiro with abandon and great feel. We usually have some Mongo Santamaria or Airto on the stereo at my place when she's over. So, no offense to drummers.
My previous experience with drummers was not with the top 1%, but I've played with some decent guys in a dance hall band I played bass in. A bass player needs to be tight with the drummer; when the bassist is the time keeper, something is amiss.
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Drum machines might not have a soul but they have a volume control and sound the same at any volume. At some low volume levels drumers don't have much fun.
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There is also the issue of "drum machine or NO drums." The OP was about solo acts who use drum machines, and the devices have a role to play in that situation. I have recorded a lot using a drum machine in the absence of a live drummer, to keep everyone in line, and I often discarded the drum machine track in the final mixdown, preferring no drums to the sterile beat of the machine.
They, like so many of the things we obsess over, are nothing more than tools.
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Speaking more as an audience member than a musician, I'm not a fan of electronic accompaniment. I prefer to see a soloist play solo. Machine based backing instrumentation seems false and detracts from the music. I'm probably (definitely) a minority in this opinion though.
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Good point; a lot of times we use crutches that are more obvious than we like to the audience. I played at downtown gatherings in a small central TX town (myself on Dobro, guitar and harmonica with a friend singing and playing guitar -- no drum machine!) several times and noted a couple of guys who had karaoke rigs in the back of their pickups: their singing sounded pretty good, and I'm sure they were proud of their abilities, but the whole thing turned me off.
OK, no more defending drum machine!
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A looper pedal can be useful in this situation. By scraping and tapping the strings one can achieve a pretty good 4-bar groove to play along with as a soloist. Those of you interested in this new looping thing should check out the boss looper champion for this year; a remarkably talented young woman who is extremely creative and musical.
As an aside, while using drum loops or drum machines may be annoyingly artificial in the jazz or listening context, it can be very helpful if your audience starts dancing, as mine did last night. They insisted on doing the Twist, so I scraped and tapped out a typical Twist rhythm into the looper, then the sax player and I (just a duo gig) played what we could remember of the melody, then just honked on blues changes for a couple of minutes; the crowd was very happy, nice tips, another gig came out of it, and it was over in 3 minutes.
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