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I let my (CG) teacher try my Loar last week, and while he really liked how the Brouwer piece we'd been working on sounds on it, he was unimpressed by the amount of sound "such a big guitar" makes.
Given the apparent consensus that this guitar is loud I have to agree with him in the absolute.
A quick test with the nice DecibelX app on my iPhone (on my stand, at a bit over arm's length) shows that I can just manage to get about 81dB out of a single string with thumb rest strokes.
For comparison, on both of my nylon stringers that will be more around 90dB.
This fits in with my general experience that steel string flat-top guitars are rarely a match for classicals unless you start hocking them with a plectrum, which is really surprising as you'd think they originated from a need for more volume.
Anyone interested in providing and collecting some comparation samples in this thread, from a range of instruments?
PS: I have a number of custom-ordered classical strings that turned out being way too heavy. Tried the A string on the archtop yesterday and was surprised to see it was almost just as loud on the initial attack, but evidently with less sustain (and for some reason, intonating flat by almost a quarter tone at the 12th fret).
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12-14-2024 09:22 AM
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Generally, an archtop needs heavy steel strings and a heavy hand to get maximum volume. Nylon strings cannot generate enough energy to drive the thicker top. Classical tops are much thinner than those on archtops, and the top is driven differently. Nylon strings on an archtop will almost always be a disappointment.
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well, doh, the bit about a single nylon string was a PS. Note that it's the tension that counts. A nylon string reaches the same tension as a steel string for the desired pitch ought to be able to drive the top just as well - at least for the peak sound volume.
But the numbers I posted were of course for steel strings (a 0.044w A and IIRC a 0.036w D) and that's also what I'd like to focus on here. I already know that there are currently no nylon-strung archtops that can compete with CGs except maybe (possibly) the few Alan Carruth built - as classical guitars.
EDIT: Off the top of my head, the custom nylon A string I tested reaches over 12kg of tension at pitch, on a 635mm scale length. The D and G strings from the set reach comparably high numbers, the D probably even a bit more, the E string a bit over 10kg. That's the only one I can use, for dropped D tuning, occasionally tuning upwards to E for a lesson or rehearsal. If I could find matching trebles I use these strings on my resonator, but a standard classical can't handle that kind of total tension.
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Loudness a few feet in front of the guitar isn't everything. Play some rhythm on those guitars with a big band, let me know which one is heard.
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IMHO it's more relevant to how well you can hear the thing as a melody/solo instrument or in a small ensemble with similarly quiet melody instruments. I..e a context where cutting through the mix isn't appropriate, but adding your part to the mix is.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
My guess: neither, when sticking to a playing method that's compatible with both. Easy to quench a CG with a too heavy hand.Play some rhythm on those guitars with a big band, let me know which one is heard.
Ask yourself: would you recognise that weakish percussion instrument as a guitar without the prior knowledge we all have here?
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Classical guitars emit mostly bass frequencies, with a huge broad peak at around 500 Hz and virtually zero above 1k Hz so I agree they would not be easily heard comping acoustically in a band.
I wonder though about that phone app sound pressure measurement - dB is a log scale so that difference between guitars is actually quite large. In addition, 90dB seems way too high, over 85dB is a safety issue for prolonged exposure. I would bet that a pro SP meter would be reading more in the 60-70dB range.
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Designed for different things. The CG (in the lineage of Segovia) is designed mainly for use as a solo instrument with a loud, strong bass fundamental. The archtop is designed to be a cymbal, essentially, a timekeeper in a band setting: mids and highs, not much bass.
I think it's ironic that the dark, rich, fat "jazz" tone that we try to get out of an archtop guitar is the antithesis of what the archtop guitar is designed to do. We're basically trying to get them to sound like a classical guitar. I also always get a chuckle out of gear posts that start with "I'm trying to get a dark, fat sound for jazz." Of course you are; nobody ever says "I'm trying to get a bright, thin, stringy sound for jazz" or most any other form of music. Even though that is sometimes exactly what is needed to cut through the mix and be heard. Between the bassist, the kick drum and the piano, most bands already have enough low to low mid frequency information happening.
Last night, the band up before us was a guitar and tuba duo, which I have never heard done before. I don't believe I'd ever heard anyone play "Oleo" on a tuba, which was impressive. The guitarist had an Eastman Frank Vignola model. Amplified, it was very reminiscent of the Selmer Maccaferri kind of sound, at least the way he had it EQ'd through his amp. It was perfect for that duo. A little bright, thin, stringy which contrasted well with the dark, low tuba tones. He did not have to be loud at all, in fact barely above acoustic volume, but was perfectly audible throughout the gym at all times. Beautiful and even subtle.
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Yes, and it exists perceptually too. The exact expression was rien dans le ventre (except for the treble strings). And it's the impression I've often had when taking a steel-string to guitar ensemble rehearsals: "boy, I can't even keep up with those kid guitars" (plus "caaaareful with those treble strings"). Originally Posted by Donnd
That's possible, but I've always assumed that the iOS APIs offer at least some form of calibration. Plus, the phone sits in front of the guitar, not behind/above it like my ears - and I plug the soundport at home because other wise the Cabaret is too loud even for my ears that have been subjected to violins for decades (and many more hours/day than I play guitar).In addition, 90dB seems way too high, over 85dB is a safety issue for prolonged exposure. I would bet that a pro SP meter would be reading more in the 60-70dB range.
Anyway, those values given are peak values when trying to get the maximum out of the instrument, just not getting over the top. The sort of thing I do as a warm-up exercise. I'm not yet at the point where I can play music and read the display to get an idea of the average and variations. I'll see if the "dosimeter" feature can be used for that
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Sitting in the living room a flat top guitar of most any type might sound loud and even louder than and arcthtop. Go into a large gym or concert hall and get back in the rear and you will not even hear a flattop but the archtop will punch the sound right out the door. This is an easy experiment to do and have done it a number of times. Flattop and classical guitar disperse the sound out the round hole and it goes wide immediately. An archtop take the sounds and throws it forward in a big punch like a laser light then starts moving out. The initial sound is forward not dispersed. Bright and as Tim says like a cymbal.
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From what I've read that's not at all what Gibson designed the L5 for, and it's also definitely not the only thing properly built modern acoustic archtops can do (and I'm not just talking about the Parkers, Monteleones or Mirabellas). Originally Posted by Cunamara
Oh well, apparently I picked the wrong forum to raise this discussion and suggestion...
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An archtop is the most versatile acoustic guitar. This all goes back to what the great Jimmy D'aquisto thought and built and believed. Unlike a flattop you can change things on an archtop to change the sound without do any modifications to the structure of the guitar. You can use a different bridge, tailpiece, and make adjustments on the fly. No flatop can do this at all. Just the fact that the action can be lowered or raise in matter of seconds has the biggest impact. Originally Posted by RJVB
To explain the difference. I have in the past played a strolling acoustic job at a restaurant. This with another guitarist who also sings. All acoustic. I get my 18 inch Hollenbeck out and put on bronze strings that I normally never use. I then raise the action 1/64 of an inch on the bridge for more output. Immediately the guitar changes character and becomes a real smoking rhythm machine with more power in 5 minutes.
Contrast this to another gig I do that I play solo chord melody in an intimate setting no singers and small venue. I put on lighter strings lower the action maybe even flatwound strings. This same guitar is now a smooth and warm solo instrument that is quite different in how it responds and even plays. It is the same guitar and the same general sound. The archtop is so amazingly versatile and many have no idea.
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What? You are having a discussion which is necessarily different viewpoints being aired. I'm not clear what suggestion you're referring to. Originally Posted by RJVB
By the way, I appreciate you using a decibel meter rather than subjective impressions. As the saying goes, one measurement is worth 1000 opinions.
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I'm not sure anyone knows what music Loar designed the L5 for, this happened at a time when mandolin bands were all the rage, so that is a likely candidate. Originally Posted by RJVB
But music was in transition, and very quickly the L5 revolutionized two fields of American music: jazz (Kress and Lang) and country (Maybelle Carter). Neither were probably on Loar's radar.
And the L5 very quickly replaced the banjo as a "four to the bar" rhythm instrument, as typified by Freddie Green. The L5 was parallel braced and mid-focused, with a punchy sounds, so ideal for that purpose. Martin style guitars soon became the benchmark for country- X braced, with more bass and highs.
For modern arch tops, some are made in the traditional parallel-braced manner for the more traditional sound, and some are x-braced for a more full, maybe even more flat top sound. Some prefer this for finger style playing or picked solo playing. I believe this is what D'Acquisto pioneered but I'm not sure.
Classical guitars have a very different purpose, and put out a loud lower midrange tone, as others have said. Since they are very focused on that frequency, they might seem or even be louder than any given archtop. If you want to play an arch top with classical finger technique, I would think you would have to choose very carefully. Even jazz guitarists that I have seen who use their fingers, often in conjunction with a pick (Lage for instance) rarely, to my eye, use rest strokes with their fingers.
So, I would say, choose your technique, and choose your guitar. Luckily there are many to choose from depending on the style you play. And you can accumulate some (or many) different guitars for the various styles that you play (my addiction, er, method).
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There are reasons that classical guitars, and steel-string flat-top guitars, were (and are) not used in big bands. dB levels near the guitar, measuring only a limited part of the sound spectrum, won't tell you everything. But the fact is that if flat-tops performed the function better than archtops, they would be used by almost everyone. But you will find almost none in use, and they have never been used. In the end, use whatever works best for you in the idiom you play.
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Is someone trying to say that a classical guitar is louder than an archtop?
Think most have found that playing a classical as designed.. fingerstyle, versus playing an acoustic archtop as designed.. mid to heavy steel strings and a pick, aren't even close. My carved 18" will drive you out of the room with round wound .013's. With .014's you can take revenge on banjo's.
Not that it matters as design and application are totally different. So.. can we compare mandolins to tubas next? Been wondering about low brass.
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My Loar LH-650 is brand new and fairly loud.
I did change the Bridge 3 times. The third time worked like a charm.
What specific strings are you using?
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