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I have a heritage eagle classic. It had their standard bridge with the open footer. I wanted an ebony saddle so I bought the benedetto ebony bridge. On the heritage bridge, the footer didn't conform to the top. So my luthier installed the benedetto and fitted the footer to the top.
IT . SOUNDED . WORSE !
It actually deadened the sound. The guitar wasn't as loud or lively and lost the mojo it originally had, so I installed the poorly fitted original. Luthier speculates that perhaps the extended bass without the open footer could be contributing to the difference (which I had always heard was a positive one).
here's a photo with the L5 style pg and original bridge re-installed. I think the saddles are graphtec.
Basically posting this so that folks know that it's not always a positive improvement to replace a tuneamatic with ebony...
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11-22-2024 09:40 AM
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Uh yes sir. Wood is more subdued than metal.
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Very interesting! Why did you want the ebony saddle? What did you expect it to do, Jack?
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I was hoping for a more organic tone
Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
There's more going on than it just being subdued. I have an ebony bridge on my holst and it doesn't deaden the sound at all. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
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You can also experiment with KTS titanium saddles./ABR bridge/.
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If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
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It always amazes me how much a bridge saddle affects tone (and volume) on an archtop.
My L-5CESN came to me with a TOM. I always swap out the TOM when I get an archtop (I prefer the whiff of acoustic tone that a wooden saddle imparts to an archtop) and on that guitar, I installed an Ebony saddle that forum member Vinny gifted me years ago. After playing the guitar on many gigs where I always felt the sound was just a bit thin for my taste, I was ready to reinstall the TOM. But I had a second Ebony saddle that Vinny had given me (Vinny likes high end TOM's), and I decided to try the second Ebony saddle just to see what might happen. Amazingly, the sound thickened up (dramatically). That tells me that every piece of wood is different. The TOM for that guitar remains in the case pocket. And the first Ebony saddle that i tried remains in my parts box.
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IME, having the base conform exactly to the top isn't always ideal. I've had some guitars that sounded better to me with a two-footed base than with a fitted full-contact base. And some that sounded bad with a two-footed base, better with a full-contact fitted base. I cannot predict in advance which will sound better, all I know is to experiment and see what I prefer on each instrument. Acoustic tone and volume are theoretically best with a full-contact very light bridge, but that doesn't necessarily extrapolate to better amplified tone. And the same bridge can sound wonderful or terrible on different guitars.
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I like a two-footed
rosewood bridge and saddle
but that’s just to my taste ….
and I like a warm sound
with Very little high end zing
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Had a similar experience with 175. To me TOM seems to bring out the high frequencies that the wooden bridge does not. I can see how in some cases that could be handy, but all the 175s I've tried needed some help in upper frequency department to get them where I like it.
Wondering if adding an integrated bone or brass saddle to the ebony bridge would make a difference. Always liked the idea of a solid piece of material to support all the strings to reduce the inherent vibration / play and mass of TOM.
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Interesting observations!
I change the tom bridge of my Archtop tribute 175 once a year to the rosewood bridge that came with it, but after one day I am back to the tom bridge . I can’t get used to the sound of the E and B string with the rosewood bridge.
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The bridge "drives" the top because it's the main point of transfer of vibrational energy to it from the strings. The top has to be contoured and the bridge sized and positioned so that the contact point(s) between bridge and top are the ideal size and location for energy transfer from bridge to top. Synergy of design between top and bridge have to affect both tone and volume, and energy transfer alone is not the sole determinant of how a guitar sounds. Other factors include propogation of that energy across the top, internal losses to the wood itself as well as other elements (like saddles, nuts, and pickups), and the many physical properties of the rest of the guitar. Originally Posted by sgosnell
There's undoubtedly a "sweet spot" for that bridge-to-top interaction that brings out the tones we love, and it's affected by everything from where the bridge sits in relation to the contours and varying thickness of the top to how concentrated the force of the bridge is against the top (i.e. how large or small the contact area is). Factors like where the bracing is in relation to the bridge contact points affect whether the vibrating bridge excites the top or dissipates its energy into the relatively less mobile braces. Changing from a 2 foot bridge base to a continuous base may be reducing energy transfer to the top. Changing bridge design and position might result in mechanical high or low pass filtration that changes the tone quality. For example, stiffness is a high pass filter. So if the top stiffness is higher near the ends of the bridge base (e.g. because parallel braces are running right under the ends), fitting a fully conforming broad single foot base could result in what Jack descibes as "deadening" the sound. And if a bridge change results in higher pressure over more responsive areas of the top, the sound may bloom.
All of this is part of the challenge of designing and making a guitar that sounds the way the luthier wants it to sound. Altering a carefully thought out set of relationships among strings, bridge, top, braces, etc is undertaken with great risk. Like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates, you really don't know what you're going to get until you bite into it.
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To quote nevershouldhavesoldit:
"All of this is part of the challenge of designing and making a guitar that sounds the way the luthier wants it to sound. Altering a carefully thought out set of relationships among strings, bridge, top, braces, etc is undertaken with great risk. Like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates, you really don't know what you're going to get until you bite into it."
I just came from Ric McCurty's shop and we had along discussion that pretty much repeats what you said here. He designs and builds hi-end guitars. He is often intrigued by what the pieces of wood he works with, and then the hardware and the add-ons will do for the finished products. He has a great knowledge on these subjects, has built many guitars, so he has his techniques and "tried and true" practices. But...there are always surprises, and experimentation with materials and design, especially when designing a new original design instrument.
He made and fitted an ebony bridge to my L5 CES a while back. Just the saddle to sit on the original 2 footed base. I like it. Yes it is different than the TOM, but which is better,
The jury is still out.
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I'm glad you mentioned it because I kind of wonder how benedetto can sell these bridges to stew mac (famous for marking stuff up) and then sell it retail for $38 when standard retail markup is usually 3x cost. So you figure these ebony bridges are made in asia for $13 each. Are we 100% certain it's gaboon ebony? And how old is it, how was it dried, etc. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
And John A's posting is probably the most apt. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
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Standard retail markup is 2X cost (AKA "Keystone"), so it is probably a $19 bridge to Stew Mac. But still, your point stands. Ebony can mean a lot of things. And every piece of Ebony will be a bit different, even if it is real ebony. Originally Posted by jzucker
Most of us are too damn curious to not fix stuff that "ain't broke".
Keystone Pricing Definition, Benefits, and Examples - The Megaventory Blog
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I have ebony that has been in the shop for at least 25 years, and I will guarantee that the best is pure black Gabon ebony. This stuff is pure black almost no streaks of color. I have bought some small blanks of ebony for bridges and saddles, but they just are not quite as nice as this old batch. Ebony can be streak and nothing wrong with it but getting pure black is not easy.
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For me it also has to do with string type and guage. On my 175 I like the original '74 rosewood bridge with roundwounds but prefer the tom with flats. So many options...so little time
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I bought a Benedetto ebony bridge assembly from Stewmac about a month ago. The package said it was made in India. The thumbwheels are shiny silver metal (chromed?) instead of the black thumbwheels you generally see on a Benedetto guitar. It's worked out well so far - on a laminate-top archtop.
Last edited by northernbreed; 11-22-2024 at 07:42 PM.
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I get it. Most of what I know about fixing stuff came from being curious about how something not broken (yet) works, tinkering with it, breaking it, and having to fix it for real. I think I’ve finally learned not to do that. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Most of us are too damn curious to not fix stuff that "ain't broke".
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When I worked at rockwell automation, we typically used a 3x multiplier! Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Standard retail markup is 2X cost (AKA "Keystone"), so it is probably a $19 bridge to Stew Mac. But still, your point stands. Ebony can mean a lot of things. And every piece of Ebony will be a bit different, even if it is real ebony.
Most of us are too damn curious to not fix stuff that "ain't broke".
Keystone Pricing Definition, Benefits, and Examples - The Megaventory Blog
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I have an ebony bridge and saddle on my holst and that guitar sounds great. Both guitars have TI JS112 strings. Originally Posted by Rickco
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Sometimes changing the bridge means the string gauge should be changed, because heavier or lighter strings can drive the top differently, and give a different sound. A .012 set is my default, and usually a good compromise, but it's not always the best. There are so many variables, each affecting the others, that it can be a long process, changing one variable at a time, to reach the sweet spot. Changing two or more things at the same time means you can't know what caused what tonal change. And it's not a straightforward journey, because everyone's preferences are different. What might sound perfect to me might sound terrible to someone else, and vice versa. All I know is to keep on experimenting, and that's more than half the fun anyway.
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The name of the game is energy. There are only 2 factors in the kinetic energy equation: energy = 1/2 x mass x velocity squared. So the only 2 ways to increase the energy of vibrating strings are to increase their mass or to increase the mean velocity of their movement. Originally Posted by sgosnell
I posted the results when I finally bit the bullet and tried the big (14-55) Benson TI flats on my heavy, laminated, poly encapsulated FujiGen-built Ibanez AF207. The guitar woke up. I’d gone from JS112s during Covid to JS113s with no significant change in tone. I had previously posted unlabeled volume matched clips of the same tune played by me on the guitar with 112s and 113s, with a poll. Half of the respondents guessed wrong, and I know I couldn’t tell the difference by listening.
But the threshold seems to have been between the JS113s and the Benson 14 set. The increased energy and the increased downforce on the bridge combined to drive the top perfectly, and the rest of the guitar followed suit. Both acoustic and amplified tone are noticeably cleaner, richer, and woodier. I think Jack would say it’s more organic. And it’s even a bit more resistant to feedback than it was with 112s or 113s. The only explanation I can offer is increased string mass, since Bensons are basically the same as JS strings.
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I've had guitars which didn't sound great with .013 or heavier sets, but going to a .012 set made it sound much better. And the reverse was true on other guitars. I think that in general laminated guitars will sound better with heavier strings, but there are no guarantees. Everything is a compromise, and everyone has to decide where the best compromise exists.
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so, you paid $32.95 for a gewgaw made in India, called Ebony, branded Benedetto, sold by Stew Mac and nothing could go wrong there? The last time I checked Walkin Japan a Gabon Ebony saddle, no base, costs JPY15500 i.e.about USD115. You do get what you pay for. Blackened wood in India is sometimes called Ebony when they are in fact Ebonised. You could be getting Ebonised Boxwood for all you know. For $32.95 that is somewhat more likely than not.
Give good old Stephen Holst a shout and see if a Holst ebony bridge may not be far better. Again, switching from a metallic TOM to a wooden saddle brings with it a different set of resonances and damping characteristics. Your ears have to readjust; your guitar has to readjust. A wooden saddle will ring far less metallically than a TOM. It is the shock of the new. If an ebony saddle sounds dead perhaps it is not true ebony. No true Scotsman and all that.
By the way, did you ever receive the $750 bass amp that was re-routed to Alaska and late in delivery? I think you paid for lowest cost shipping? Yeah, cheap low cost shipping does that to you. No different from a cheap ebonised bridge. We all have to manage expectations.
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