Need advice on the sound of this Gibson L-5 Wes model..

[Maxxx]

Trying to buy my first ever Gibson L-5

And have been reading the very useful comments in this thread:
Gibson L-5ces and L-5 Wes Montgomery - Differences?

The general consensus is that the CES with the double pickups is the BOSS GUITAR.
Practically everyone is saying that the CES has definitely the better tone that we hear on the albums.. the genuine Wes Montgomery sound because that's the guitar he played.

The actual Wes Montgomery custom model wasn't built and released until 10 years after his death so he never actually had one or played one.
And they are all saying it sounds thinner and brighter than the CES.

But.. and that's a big but.. occasionally you come across a rare Wes Montgomery Custom model that has that exact right sound.
Maybe this one in Germany iis one of those because it does sound beautiful, full, rich, warm and fat.

Before I fly to Germany and maybe end up with something I regret are there any Gibson experts here that can tell me if this guitar has that Holy Grail tone?
Or should I just play safe and go for a CES model.?

For a comparison here's Tobias playing a CES in the same environment and similar set up.
To my ears the CES And the sound seems more powerful, thunderous and has that weight, width, breadth, and pendulous authority of the classic L5
Thoughts and opinions would be most helpful.
Thank you kindly for your time.

[lesyeuxnoirs]

I think that you might be tying yourself in knots a bit here (understandable) and asking us for answers that we can't really give (again, understandable)

I think you are armed with all of the relevant information and collective wisdom by this point. Leaving aside the difficulty of judging tone based on YT recordings (and of course, tone on album recordings is almost always going to be different to tone in a room) - my only thoughts are:

1) The only way you are going to tell if you like this guitar or not is to go to Germany and play it. Flights are cheap enough from the UK and if you don't like it - you haven't lost much (and it might be a nice outing)

2) You will only end up with something regret if you don't like it but still buy it. If you play it and love it, then there's no reason to regret it

3) The ONLY opinion that actually matters is your opinion. Sounds like you like it enough to give it a try and so it shouldn't matter that there's a consensus that as CES is better (I think plenty on here will sing the virtues of the WesMo...plenty more would say 'get both', perhaps with a tongue firmly in cheek given the costs involved)

4) If, however, for whatever reason you have it in your mind that it HAS to be a CES then you probably won't be satisfied with the Wes Mo

I posted a link to a CES that was for sale in the UK the other day but deleted as I realised after posting that it was withdrawn. It might, however, worth messaging the seller (no affiliation)

Withdrawn - Gibson L5 CES 2002 - Guitars PS Discussions on theFretBoard

Alternatively - Groyniad is selling a Heritage Eagle Classic for a fair price in the UK

[lesyeuxnoirs]

All of that said - based on the videos, with all the relevant caveats, I agree with you that the CES sounds richer, thicker and more powerful...it conjures the 'Wes' tone that I have in my head better than the WesMo in the other video

My guess, then, is that you are probably better off holding out for a CES. But I could be completely wrong!

Hope at least some of this helps a little

[kevmoga]

Based on those two vids, CES all the way, no contest.

[skiboyny]

I'm sure you have read all the comments on these two guitars. The Wes model is more acoustic, and the CES more electric. The CES will tend to perform better, with more authority, in a amplified environment and be slightly quieter acoustically . They both have a similar sound though. They are both on the bright side by nature. Never forget that wood is always different, so the same model can sound slightly different. Very hard to judge a guitar by a recording. You need to feel what the instrument is giving you. Best of luck with your decision.

[Maxxx]

I'm sure you have read all the comments on these two guitars. The Wes model is more acoustic, and the CES more electric. The CES will tend to perform better, with more authority, in a amplified environment and be slightly quieter acoustically . They both have a similar sound though. They are both on the bright side by nature. Never forget that wood is always different, so the same model can sound slightly different. Very hard to judge a guitar by a recording. You need to feel what the instrument is giving you. Best of luck with your decision.

Thanks Skiboyny..

Yes I am definitely more interested in the electric amplified sounds of these guitars. Note taken on the variability of their sound based on the woods on each individual instrument.

[omphalopsychos]

I had and sold my CES. I have three Wes now. Ultimately it’s a matter of preference. The Wes is brighter so that’s cool for me. Also I must be really good at managing feedback because it’s just not an issue for me.

[wintermoon]

"The actual Wes Montgomery custom model wasn't built and released until 10 years after his death so he never actually had one or played one"

Well, he died in '68 and the Wes Montgomery model wasn't introduced until '93 iirc, so that's 25 years.

I have and prefer CES models but it's interesting to note that after playing stock CES models for years, the last two L-5's Wes used were custom made single pickup guitars that inspired his namesake model.

[2bornot2bop]

+1 for the CES over the Wes.

I preferred the cleaner look of the Wes. But the sound just didn’t come close to the CES. So I sold the Wes strictly because I preferred the sound of the CES.

The CES is much warmer. Good luck finding a Wes to compare.

[fabiansey]

I also vote for the ces, having owned both.

[Rickco]

This wont be popular but Im gonna say it. Your comparing 2 videos of an average player who never plays a chord playing over another guitar on a cell phone utube and your going to use that to help you choose a muti $K guitar? adding the opinions of people you never heard play. If you liked any of what you heard on those videos my advise would be save some money and buy a 175, good luck in your hunt.

[Cunamara]

There is nothing like playing the guitar for yourself to decide whether or not you like it. Nobody can get Wes's tone, but Wes, although there are quite a few people to do a pretty good approximation. Given the prices involved, traveling to check it out is probably a good idea, but be prepared to walk away if it isn't what you want. Just because you traveled there doesn't mean you have to buy it.

And, if I might suggest, if you're flying to Germany to check out a guitar also schedule some other things to do while you're there, so that it does not feel like a wasted trip if you come home without the guitar.

For what it's worth, I would say in that video the tone of the Westmo was not exactly that of Wes Montgomery, although very good (I would not personally complain about sounding that good). Part of it is that his thumb technique is quite a bit different from Wes. Wes planted his right hand fingers along the edge of the guitar and used a lot of rest strokes, at least from what I've seen on videos. He often seemed to be using the pad of his thumb rather than the side of it.

[rpjazzguitar]

I preferred the Wes model. But it’s possible I’d have preferred the CES if the treble was rolled off.

A key to Wes sound is the the right hand position. He played with his thumb and with his other fingers spayed out flat, more or less, against the guitar. In my opinion, this makes a big difference, not just the thumb, but also the position of those other fingers. The splayed-fingers position changes the angle of the thumb attack on the strings, or so I think, and helps create Wes’s sound.

Wes said himself that he preferred the sound with his thumb to the sound he could make with a pick.

[wintermoon]

I preferred the Wes model. But it’s possible I’d have preferred the CES if the treble was rolled off.

A key to Wes sound is the The right hand position. He played with his thumb and with his other fingers spayed out flat, more or less against the guitar. In my opinion, this makes a big difference, not just the thumb, but also the position of those other fingers. That position changes the angle of the thumb attack on the strings, or so I think, and helps create Wes’s sound.

Wes said himself that he preferred the sound with his thumb to the sound he could make with a pick.

I thought he said he wanted to use a pick to play faster but practicing late at night disturbed the neighbors so he stuck w the thumb since it gave a mellower sound.

[Maxxx]

I thought he said he wanted to use a pick to play faster but practicing late at night disturbed the neighbors so he stuck w the thumb since it gave a mellower sound.

None of that is actually relevant. The topic was about the tone of a particular guitar in the first post that's for sale because every Gibson L5 sounds different. The question was not about: 'how one can sound exactly like Wes'..
Try to move away from too much focus on Wes for a minute and just think about the L5 as a guitar in its own right because many other people played them before him and after him and sounded just wonderful.

Because this guitar, if you get a good one, sounds absolutely incredible however it's played, whether with a thumb, pick or even finger style. You don't need the magic thumb of Wes for it to sound nice any more than you need the pick and right hand of Hendrix to make your Strat sound beautiful.

And remember.. the Gibson L-5 had that beautiful sound BEFORE Wes ever picked it up. That's WHY he picked it up.

Pic:

Fingerstyle:

Even myself I'm trying to see this guitar objectively in its own right and no longer call it a Wes Montgomery guitar or tone, it's a Gibson L5 guitar and tone.

[Gustavo Eiriz]

L-5 WES is not thinner, it has more higher freqs harmonics, this is not thinner. It doesnt have less low harmonics, it has more richness there. You can put them down with the tone.
To me Wes model is simply better, i had both, two pickups and one.
You should decide which one you like most, the most important difference is the dynamic range, WES has wider dynamic range and two pickups versions doesnt response to your touch the same way. Wes version also feedbacks more, just because the top is more responsive.
Dont rely on videos, play yourself before decide. I didnt and because of that i was wrong.

[Maxxx]

There is nothing like playing the guitar for yourself to decide whether or not you like it. Nobody can get Wes's tone, but Wes, although there are quite a few people to do a pretty good approximation. Given the prices involved, traveling to check it out is probably a good idea, but be prepared to walk away if it isn't what you want. Just because you traveled there doesn't mean you have to buy it.

And, if I might suggest, if you're flying to Germany to check out a guitar also schedule some other things to do while you're there, so that it does not feel like a wasted trip if you come home without the guitar.

For what it's worth, I would say in that video the tone of the Westmo was not exactly that of Wes Montgomery, although very good (I would not personally complain about sounding that good). Part of it is that his thumb technique is quite a bit different from Wes. Wes planted his right hand fingers along the edge of the guitar and used a lot of rest strokes, at least from what I've seen on videos. He often seemed to be using the pad of his thumb rather than the side of it.

See my previous comment on Wes...

The reason I'm trying to get some extra viewpoints and ears on the topic is because I'm not flying, I'm going to be riding a motorbike and have narrowed it down to maybe four different sellers in Holland, Germany, and Switzerland. So that's a roughly 2,000 mile ride, maybe more if I decide I want guitar number one and have to backtrack. Not quite like popping down to my local guitar shop. It's not really a sightseeing trip either, I've been to Germany about 29 times and have ridden the length and breadth of the entire country multiple times. The only reason I have to do this it's because theres no L5s in the UK and no dealer wants to ship here.

[rpjazzguitar]

None of that is actually relevant. The topic was about the tone of a particular guitar in the first post that's for sale because every Gibson L5 sounds different. The question was not about: 'how one can sound exactly like Wes'..
Try to move away from too much focus on Wes for a minute and just think about the L5 as a guitar in its own right because many other people played them before him and after him and sounded just wonderful.

Because this guitar, if you get a good one, sounds absolutely incredible however it's played, whether with a thumb, pick or even finger style. You don't need the magic thumb of Wes for it to sound nice any more than you need the pick and right hand of Hendrix to make your Strat sound beautiful.

And remember.. the Gibson L-5 had that beautiful sound BEFORE Wes ever picked it up. That's WHY he picked it up.

Pic:

Fingerstyle:

Even myself I'm trying to see this guitar objectively in its own right and no longer call it a Wes Montgomery guitar or tone, it's a Gibson L5 guitar and tone.

I may have been misled by the reference to the "genuine Wes Montgomery sound". Good luck.

[Herbie]

This wont be popular but Im gonna say it. Your comparing 2 videos of an average player who never plays a chord playing over another guitar on a cell phone utube and your going to use that to help you choose a muti $K guitar? adding the opinions of people you never heard play. If you liked any of what you heard on those videos my advise would be save some money and buy a 175, good luck in your hunt.

You are completely right. But not all of us can have personal playing experience of these kinda guitars before buying, not to mention that one would have an opportunity to compare two or more guitars with each other.

For us these poor sounding videos and peer reviews are best hints of what these guitars might feel or sound. Before the internet we didn't even have these!

So have a bit mercy before you let us hear Your unpleasant truths!

[Jabberwocky]

If you like the L-5CES amplified, save some money and get the Epiphone Elitist Broadway. Plugged in, any differences is just quibbling.

The L-5 Wes Montgomery is a different kettle of fish. It is akin to the Gibson Johnny Smith. The neck pickup is in a non-resonant part of the carved spruce top. You either gel with it or you don't.

The charm of the L-5WM won't be readily apparent in these YT videos. You got to hold it in your hands and hear it for yourself.

I can tell you are drawn to the L-5CES and want us to tell you what you want to hear. Gopher it.

Put it this way: the L-5CES is an electric archtop; the L-5WM is an amplified acoustic archtop. Either one would warm the cockles of your heart.

[2bornot2bop]

I can relate to the OP, having to drive miles simply to sample something with someone else’s gear. But the furthest I ever traveled to “sample” a guitar was on one guitar only. And it was only 500 miles round trip. So to travel 2000 miles, on a motorbike? That’s a passionate man on a mission. I wish him the best finding the Gibson of his dreams. And they’re both more beautiful to hold than anything I’ve ever owned.

[Jimmy Mack]

So, just curious because I have done this > I travelled 420 miles with A Fender XII on my back in, a gig bag, on a motorcycle.
I would never attempt that with an L5. If you find this holy guitar, the dealer won't ship it to you?

[Rickco]

Apparentely my remarks were offensive to some readers. I want to assure you I meant no disrespect...I tend to be blunt...old man grew up in jersey...

[Cunamara]

See my previous comment on Wes...

The reason I'm trying to get some extra viewpoints and ears on the topic is because I'm not flying, I'm going to be riding a motorbike and have narrowed it down to maybe four different sellers in Holland, Germany, and Switzerland. So that's a roughly 2,000 mile ride, maybe more if I decide I want guitar number one and have to backtrack. Not quite like popping down to my local guitar shop. It's not really a sightseeing trip either, I've been to Germany about 29 times and have ridden the length and breadth of the entire country multiple times. The only reason I have to do this it's because theres no L5s in the UK and no dealer wants to ship here.

Guitar or not, that looks like a great trip. Good luck!

FWIW, I have lived all my life in the US, have played jazz guitar for 45 years and I've never seen an L5 in person. They're not growing on trees here, either.

[Mick-7]

I have lived all my life in the US, have played jazz guitar for 45 years and I've never seen an L5 in person. They're not growing on trees here, either.

Yeah, bummer, apparently only Hofners do: