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I recently picked up playing again after about a decade hiatus. Last summer I sat in with a trad. band for a one-off festival gig and realised how much I missed playing. Next month I have a solo gig, playing a few tunes at a fundraising event.
After not playing live for years I sold off my amps, save a Fender Champ and Bose L1 line array system. So I need to get my hands on a decent amp that will cover most bases.
I used to play tube amps and am considering a Fender Blues Junior that I can get a good deal on. It’s small, portable and the type of amp I am used to playing. It will cover just about all genres I’ll ever see myself playing, incl. blues and rootsy stuff. I like the sound of tubes at the edge of breakup.
However, I am open to more jazz oriented amps. Though I have very little experience with solid state amps - save for the Roland Cubes that used to be the default practice amps around here. I can get a deal on a DV Mark Jazz 12 or perhaps Little Jazz, but I have no experience with either. Is 60 watts solid state enough headroom to compete with horns and drums? Are they as noisy as some people say?
Lurking around this forum, I see people used stuff I would never have expected. What’s the deal with playing electric archtops through acoustic amps with a tweeter??? I tried it with my 175 and it was the most horrendous sound I ever played… Am I missing something?
I also see terms like “flat respons” being thrown around a bunch, and used for amps with anything but a flat or neutral frequency response. Polytone and similar jazz amps even have “flat” written over their eq knobs, despite being a very colored sound (although I like the clips I’ve heard of them).
I’d like some inside into why so widely different designs as vintage tube amps and modern full frequency(ish) acoustic amps can both be considered “the jazz sound”.
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10-24-2024 02:11 PM
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"Jazz tone" has changed from the days of limited selections in guitars and amps. Old style guitar amps usually have a hard ceiling on frequency reproduction around 4-5kHz, but those higher frequencies are now more acceptable.
I would suggest trying this: test a modeling preamp with EQ of some sort with your Bose. The TC Electronics Combo Deluxe '65 has recently been well spoken of here, along with the UAFX Dream 65 if you like the Fender sort of sound.
I have used a SansAmp Para Driver DI into a powered PA flat-response-full-range speaker a number of times with good results, have also gone direct to the PA with it. The above pedals are much more sophisticated than my old PDDI.
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You are not missing anything, it is truly a horrendeous sound. Some amps, like an AER Compact 60, can be eq’d to be passable, but only just. The terrible tone of some jazz players makes my ears bleed. Tweeter’s are the enemy of magnetic pickups.
Originally Posted by ii-V-I
I’m a Fender BF guy, that’s guitar tone to me. Not that there aren’t solid state amps that work well, but no tweeters, thanks.
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Seeing that you are located in Denmark i strongly suggest you try to get a hold of a Mambo amp to hear if its sound suits you. IMHO these suit the archtop sound conception very well and they are small, powerful, light and uncomplicated to handle. I prefer my 8" wedge over the 10" wedge. Soundwise they come close to the liveliness of a tube amp and the possibility of having a wedge construction offers advantages for ideal placement on gigs. Mambo Amp Originally Posted by ii-V-I
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I actually quite often play my Loar LH600 with a magnetic pickup (a Krivo Djangobucker) through an acoustic preamp and an acoustic amp. It produces a more acoustic archtop quality with the top end, which I want for some gigs.
I prefer the way that sounds to a piezo on that specific guitar.
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Try the Fender Pro Jr IV, much better than the blues junior.
The little jazz is ok, but I found it a bit underpowered and kind of sterile sounding when played loud. Arguably the best solid state amps now days are the Henriksen, but they are a lot more expensive. Then there are digital solutions like the Fender tonemaster series, but I wouldn't pay one third their cost, didn't really like them that much.
The Roland cubes are good amps, the xl series for example, and dirt cheap. I gig with the 40 sometimes. Great value for money.
Check out my Elferink through an Aer acoustic amp. Not the sound direction of say, an L5 through tubes, but viable none the less. It's a different thing, the acoustic sound, and the guitar has to complement the sound - I've heard a good player with a Gibson L5 through an Aer once and it was awful
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I'd try that Blues Jr first. I took a friend to a great local shop just last month to find something for his Broadway. We tried maybe a dozen amps and the black Blues Jr was the easy winner. I have amp envy now and want to find one for myself even though it'd only get used at home because I need a second channel for vocals.
I've been curious about the Pro Jr since that shopping trip too but have yet to try one and don't know what folks prefer about it.
For background, I'd been gigging with a Bose S1 Pro+ and an HX Stomp amp modeler in recent years because the portable PA approach suited me for singing. I recently downgraded to a Cube Street EX because I'd rather leave the pedals at home and sing through a viable combo amp than play through a PA speaker.
I also have a MegaBrute, a MIJ vintage Cube and a made in the US SuperCube but would prefer a Blues Jr to those for the tone I like from a set humbucker.
I'm curious about the love Henrikson amps have been getting in recent years but since I need something to sing through I'd only be looking at the Bud 10 which is like $1699usd.
I think this girl does a great job of comparing the usual suspects and again the Blues Jr sounds great to me:
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For the upcoming solo gig, why not just use one of those? If it's a quiet-ish setting the Champ should be fine, and if it's a louder/bigger event the Bose would work. Use some sort of pedal that gives a more guitar-amp like color to the tone (the Joyo American Sound works great) if you find the Bose too clean sounding. Originally Posted by ii-V-I
Those are good amps. Originally Posted by ii-V-I
The Little Jazz is easily loud enough for a band with a 2-3 horns, bass, drums and keys, and is not noticeably noisy (at least not the ones I've played through; there's talk of the early versions having a loud cooling fan, but that has long since been corrected). Probably not loud enough to solo over an entire big band going full throttle. Originally Posted by ii-V-I
I think the main reason that some of these amps became popular (e.g., AER Compact 60, Fishman) is that they were the only small/light/loud amps on the market for a long time. Also, the ones with mic inputs can double as PA's for people who do small gigs with vocals. Some people like that super clean sound for electric guitars, but I'd guess that most people who use these PA style amps are happy to use something more colored if they don't have to carry it. The DV and the newer (small) Henriksen amps have put a dent in the demand for AER and Acoustic Image because they offer a somewhat more guitar-amp style sound (the DV more than the Henriksen, IMO) Originally Posted by ii-V-I
In the case of Polytone, "flat" over the eq knobs just means "these are the knob positions where the tone controls are not acting on the signal," not "here the amp as a whole does not color the signal". There is no such thing as "the jazz sound". There are many jazz sounds. If you listen to a broad spectrum of players, even ones playing very similar guitars, you'll hear the gamut from dark to bright and from clean to distorted. Also, some players are indifferent to equipment and will just play whatever is there. All that said, you can get a relatively uncolored clean sound out of almost any amp, and that's why almost any amp can be used for jazz. Originally Posted by ii-V-I
FWIW, I used to use tube amps, but have switched over to solid state and modeling amps. For smaller, quieter gigs I have a Fender Champion 20 (which digitally emulates a few different Fender tube amps). Even though it's only 20 watts, it's surprisingly loud and works fine with small groups or solo. I also have a Quilter Aviator Cub (SS, but not digital), which is 50 watts and emulates Tweed, Blond, or Blackface sounds in a light and compact package. Easily loud enough for any gig I would do (various sizes of jazz groups, as well as louder blues bands).Last edited by John A.; 10-31-2024 at 09:54 AM.
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I would just get a Fender Tone Master (or a Tone Master Pro and Cab) and be done with it. Authentic Fender tones (Blackface or Tweed) at any volume and with no strain to your back. The cool thing about the Pro is that you can get just about any amp you want and a load of effects. Want a Tweed with reverb? Done. A Fender Twin cranked to break up, but not go deaf in the process? Done. A pushed Deluxe with a bit of delay? Done. A Marshall with a Big Muff? Done. How about a 5150 with modulated chorus to do some EVH? Sure. Done.
We live in a modern world. Take advantage.
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Wow… I thought we were living in a post postmodern world.
Regarding jazz amps, I started with tube amps and then migrated to SS amps (Evans, Quilter, even the mighty but noisy JC120), and have returned to old BF (is BF politically correct?) amps Princeton, Deluxe Reverb, Pro Reverb. More alive sounding to me and more fun to play through.
I have a theory about the popular Muffled Jazz Guitar tone of yore - that string/finger noise was pretty much eliminated… problem solved!
DV Mark (ick!) Fender EL84 tube amps sound too grainy to me, so I stick with the 6V6 and 6L6 power tubes for smoother sounds. YMMV
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"The future is already here. Its not just evenly distributed yet." - William Gibson (Maybe or Maybe Not) Originally Posted by vernon
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I have always liked both the "Polytone" solid state sound for jazz guitar and the Fender tube amp sound for Jazz/blues and rock guitar. I do not want to carry a tube amp anymore so I have two amps (a Quilter and a Milkman) that deliver the tube amp (The Milkman does have a tube pre-amp) sound without the weight. For the Polytone sound, I have two Henriksens (a Bud 6 and a Blu 10). They give me the classic SS jazz tone with less weight and greater reliability than Polytones ever did.
I agree that tweeters should not be used with magnetic pickups and while I found the tone "passable" with the AER Compact 60, I understand why some guys rip out the inner cone of that dual cone speaker that those amps are supplied with. The Henriksens come with a tweeter that can be switched on and off (it IS great to have the tweeter when using a guitar equipped with a piezo pickup).
I have owned three Blues Juniors. Their sound is passable for jazz, but I prefer 6V6 or 6L6 tube amps for a warmer, fatter jazz tone. Also the jacks on the Blues Juniors are mounted right on the printed circuit board and I have seen guys have these amps fail on the bandstand. They are cheap amps built mainly for the hobbyist, not the pro. I cannot opine on the DV amps, having never owned one.
HTH (and welcome to the Forum!)
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I tried a Roland AC60 and couldn't get a sound I liked. Always too bright. Originally Posted by D.G.
OTOH, I've heard several jazz players sound terrific with an AER Compact 60.
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For a while I used my Little Jazz for everything, including big band.
But, I got a few complaints about the sound (more the comping than the soloing) and I came ito agree with them.
It's a great sounding amp in its comfortable volume range, but when you try to crank it louder, something is lost.
I tried a Bose S1. On some gigs it worked well. On others, I couldn't get my sound and the rig was a little too complicated to easily adjust. The Bose S1 has two band EQ and a couple of dozen presets which are not documented. The presets are sophisticated EQ, but Bose won't give you the graphs of amplitude vs frequency. This is probably a solvable problem, but I stopped trying.
Instead, I play small gigs and rehearsals with a Roland JC55 and bigger venues with an overly complicated rig that includes the LJ as a preamp, a Yamaha mixer and Mackie powered speaker. It's ridiculous, in a way, but it sounds good and it provides redundancy in case something fails. Even when I'm not playing loud through this rig, the availability of the extra power feels good. I'm not sure how to describe what's happening but I'm guessing I'm responding to the extra headroom. Iirc Jack Zucker once said something about the LJ compressing the sound (is that correct, Jack?) -- which I didn't hear at first, but I do now.
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Yeah, having owned an HX Stomp for a while I give a failing grade to all the DSP on the Bose S1 Pro and Pro+. The awful emulation presets are named after guitars steel string guitars like a Gibson jumbo, the eq is half-assed (just treble and bass even on the app for the Pro+) and isn't musical at all, and the interface is really dumb with knobs that only give a vague indication of their levels. On the app you just get the same sorry treble and bass knobs on your phone screen and have to cover the part of the display that shows the level and then move your finger in a circle, again with no precision or numerical indicators at all. The reverb is crap too. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Despite the muddy bass and woeful dsp you can run a real amp simulator like the HX Stomp in front of it and hear how much more the S1 is capable of. Sadly the wide range of amps on the Stomp aren't targeted at jazz guitarists and even the more useful ones lack presence coming from a small, plastic PA speaker.
I realize this is mostly off topic but since the OP has the L1 I wanted to recommend against the S1. Great portability and battery life, just not fun to play guitar through.Last edited by Boze; 11-01-2024 at 02:27 PM.
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Which Champ? Black/silver panel or Tweed?
I have an old one from the 60s.
Takes 2 easy reversible component swaps to make the preamp voicing practically identical to its larger siblings. Changed the speaker for Eminence 820H for extra headroom and low-end extension.
It has supplanted my Princeton as a go-to for practice. It won't be loud and clean enough with the band without a mic/pa, but neither would the Princeton or a Blues Jr.
It does a nice blues and roots tone when cranked and/or pushed with a pedal.
I run Strymon Flint in front for reverb and trem.
Unlike the PR, I can carry it 1 hand for 10 minutes no problem.
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Twin Reverb. Big, bold, warm, and clean.
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I recently heard a band in a fairly large outdoor venue put their vocalist through a single Bose S1 on a pole. Sounded awesome all the way to the back.
I thought the Bose S1 could sound very good but the EQ was very frustrating. Apparently the electronics permit 32 band EQ (according to one source) but the software and hardware do not give access to that kind of adjustment. Rather, it’s just two bands and presets. My ME 80 pedalboard was not sufficient. I could’ve added another box to pre-process the signal, but I gave up because I didn’t want an overly complicated rig.
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And 70 lbs. My Pro Reverb with two JBLs is even heavier. Many of us can't tote 'em around any more. My Pro Reverb hasn't left my house in 20 years- great amp, but toting it around would probably put me in surgery for my back. What sounds great in the living room sounds different up two flights of stairs. Originally Posted by DawgBone
Great frickin' amp for playing blues with a Strat, though. Sometimes I think about getting a couple of neo Jensens in it and selling off the JBLs.
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You may reduce by half the in/out Twin Reverb loading by keeping it in your wagon.
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I can recommend the following
Koch Jupiter Junior, Hybrid, replace Tubes with Genalex Gold Lion for more clarity and upper tone structures
Roland Blues Cube Stage, solid state with Sparkle clean tone capsule, it has power selection though the 0.5 watt is not really nice and tone becomes better at higher wattage
Raezors Edge Centauri, Hybrid, 2x8“, not too easy to get, but a blast
Nepomuk, kleiner Muk, Tube, just awesome, may reach limits in a combo setup
with all of them you will be able to pull up with a small combo in smaller gig places.
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I have a pair of neos in my ex-Jazzkritter Twin, and it sounds great. It’s still an anchor, but it’s a few pounds lighter than stock. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Fender Tone Master Twin. Sounds like a Twin, reacts like a Twin, loud enough to shake a stage, and 32 pounds. Originally Posted by Cunamara
And 70 lbs. My Pro Reverb with two JBLs is even heavier. Many of us can't tote 'em around any more. My Pro Reverb hasn't left my house in 20 years- great amp, but toting it around would probably put me in surgery for my back. What sounds great in the living room sounds different up two flights of stairs.
Great frickin' amp for playing blues with a Strat, though. Sometimes I think about getting a couple of neo Jensens in it and selling off the JBLs.
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Love my Blues Jr. Stéphane Wrembel uses one for his magnetic pickup, and I have always thought he has great electric tone, so that's what I got. Same deal, not for an archtop, but I think it's a lot of amp for not a lot of money. And god forbid something fails, it's easy to replace.
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Thanks for all the inputs! I ended up pulling the trigger on a DV Mark Little Jazz 12” and it did well.
I surpose the Bose with some preamp/modeller in front would have too. However, I’m a pathological tweaker, so 100+ amp models and endless tweaking possibilities is cryptonite. I have been down the rabbit hole of channel switching amps and midi controlled rack units in the past. I wouldn’t get any playing done because “wouldn’t sound better with just a little more…”
The TC 65 preamp sounds like a good option for going DI/FR powered speaker. I like the BF sound and simple layout.
The 5 knobs on the DV Mark is perfect for me.
As for just using the Champ - It has its limitations and not everything sounds great on it, so I might be selling it. Apparently I’m no Julian Lage!
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