The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    A recent thread here revealed that downsizing of gear is one of the most significant life-improving changes for jazz guitarists. So why is there an obvious market gap in the micro amps category? Bassist have been blessed with a number of small, inexpensive 200W amp heads such as Elf, BAM and Gnome. All of these are roughly the size of a 25W Quilter SuperBlock but have an internal power source. Many jazz guitarists use one of these - I know because I've dealt with hundreds of Toob and Metro customers. Why doesn't anybody offer a built-in reverb and guitar-friendly eq shelves in this size/weight category?

    I've just added a new bass amp to my micro amp collection: Darkglass Microtubes 200. Everything about it exudes quality. The company is based in Helsinki. It was founded by a Chilean immigrant and is now headed by an Argentinian. A very easy-going and international working atmosphere, judging by my short visit there. The CTO said adding a reverb chip would be possible, but the company doesn't want to blur its bass-only identity. As well, with Korg as their majority owner from 2022, there are probably some group-level borders to individual brands' turfs.

    While I needed the Microtubes 200 as an upgrade to my bass cab testing arsenal, I of course have tried it with guitar. So far only briefly, but I like what I hear. The amp is built around the IcePower power source/power amp module like so many other contemporary Class D amps. As the attached photo shows, it's significantly smaller than a RE Luna 200R, another IcePower derivative, and weighs a third less. On the left stack, the usual suspects: SBUS, BAM & Gnome for comparison. The Darkglass even features a distortion engine in the preamp. I'm not qualified to judge how it works for guitar. The other photo shows the amp sitting on a Metro 6.5BG Custom.
    Attached Images Attached Images Amp mystery-toob-small-amps-jpg Amp mystery-toob-darkglass-metro-bg-jpg 
    Last edited by Gitterbug; 10-12-2024 at 03:24 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    You are right, a built in reverb would be a big point for one of these micro amps. But a built in effect loop would be sufficient for me. And that might be a nice feature for bass players as well.

  4. #3

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    So what is best for jazz guitar?
    Bass amplifiers sound clean....
    Best
    Kris

  5. #4

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    Ultimately, a matter of taste, I guess. I and many others like the warmth of the BAM200, but some people don't find it dynamic enough. I think the best jazz micro amp of the 2020s has yet to be launched.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    So what is best for jazz guitar?
    Bass amplifiers sound clean....
    Best
    Kris
    Modern bass cabs and amps are excellent for jazz guitar. Most of the bass amp electronics out there today are flat from 20 Hz to at least 10 kHz, and most of the power amp sections are probably flat to 15 kHz+ (I say probably because few guitar and bass amp munifacturers provide frequency response data for their amps). For example, the "high" EQ band on Markbass amps has a 10 kHz center, so they're flat to well above that. Most bass drivers cover a wide enough frequency range for a traditional electric jazz guitar tone, and tweeters are found in many bass amps and cabs to provide a full frequency range if you want it.

    Back in the day, traditional bass amps had little or no high frequency response because it wasn't wanted or needed for electric basses until the advent of modern bass tones like Jaco's and modern playing styles like Grahaming. Today, e-bass is a full spectrum instrument with wide range active pickups, multiple effects, etc. Also, the music now requires an extended high end for fast transients as well as modern tone. So electronics are wide range, and tweeters are now common in bass combo amps as well as speaker cabs. This makes them much better for jazz played on any style guitar, especially if they have volume knobs or at least an on-off switch.

    In the old days, upright players who needed some volume boost used relatively small bass amps and relied on their acoustic sound to fill out the tone. When sound systems grew multiple inputs and reinforcement became more common, mic'ing was a better way to capture and boost an upright. But today's bass amps can reproduce the full rich tone of a good upright as well as a good archtop. Feedback has always been a problem for amplified acoustic bass, which also limits how much amplification can be applied. There's a phase switch on many bass amps because having the speaker out of phase with the pickup reduces feedback. The traditional way to fight feedback on an upright bass was to wedge a rubber ball of some kind between the tailpiece and the top. Small Nerf footballs were probably the most common feedback reducer. I've never needed to try the phase switch on a bass amp to combat feedback on a guitar, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work to some degree at least.

    A tweeter also helps bring out the tone of a fine carved archtop with a lot of wood and sparkle through a floater. But if you only want / need a traditional ES jazz tone, a tweeter adds very little for most laminated archies and even for heavier carved tops with set humbuckers. A lot of great players got / get fabulous tone from L5s etc through Twins and similar amps with speakers whose top end starts dropping like a rock above 4kHz. If you compare the frequency response curves for 12" bass speakers and 12" guitar speakers, you'll find that the top ends roll off from about the same point at about the same rate. So most modern bass speakers are also fine for jazz guitar.

  7. #6

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    The Beringer A800 Power amp is the best sounding reference amp for me at a low price. It doesn't colour the sound.

    But, we all have different tastes and needs in sound.

    Behringer | Product | A800


  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuyBoden
    The Beringer A800 Power amp is the best sounding reference amp for me at a low price. It doesn't colour the sound.
    But it's not a competitor for the tiny amp heads Gitterbug is discussing. That's a 19" rack mount power amplifier. You need a preamp to drive it with a guitar, and it has no effects loop so any effects you want will have to be ahead of the preamp or between it and the amp. All of the good class D power amps sound pretty much the same at a given power level - any coloration is from preamp stage(s) and EQ in front of it.

    The A800 is certainly light (about 7 pounds) because it's class D, but it's not a great choice for a gigging guitar amp. I have a small SKB rack case in which I used to carry an Alesis power amp (similar in size and appearance but weighing much more because it's an old fashioned amp with transformers in it) along with a stereo preamp and a rack mounted Roland guitar synth.

    Rack cases may be great for bands who need major sound reinforcement, serious stage amplification, many channel mixing capability etc. But they're a burden to a working jazz guitarist - bulky, heavy, and space-occupying. I had to find a table or chair big and strong enough to hold it, and it's only about 11" deep. Most rack cases are much deeper than that, and SKB no longer makes one this small. The closest one they make now is a 4 space case that's 17" deep.

    Even my little 5 space SKB cab is a pain. So I don't see the A800 as a viable amp for a jazz guitarist. For what are you using yours?

  9. #8

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    Is Quilter Tone Block 202 too big and heavy (1,5 kg) in this game? It has the reverb AND the sound. (In fact many sounds.)
    Amp mystery-8cd53a35-2567-49e1-beac-81376edf922f-jpeg

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herbie
    Is Quilter Tone Block 202 too big and heavy (1,5 kg) in this game? It has the reverb AND the sound. (In fact many sounds.)
    Amp mystery-8cd53a35-2567-49e1-beac-81376edf922f-jpeg
    I think so! I have an OD202, which is a similar amp in the same case with a bit more conrol versatility but a bit less flexibility in clean voicing. The two are pretty much interchangable for loud, clean power. I love mine so much that I sold my SBUS because both the Tone Block and OD 202 will do anything I wanted the SBUS to do, but the SBUS is much less powerful.

    We get spoiled easily. It wasn't long ago that I was dragging a Mesa Boogie around and thinking that a Princeton was a small, light amp. Now we worry that a 3x7x8" head that weighs 3 pounds plus a 7x7x7" 5 pound plastic tube or an 11" cube that weighs 10.5 pounds might be too big and heavy.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herbie
    Is Quilter Tone Block 202 too big and heavy (1,5 kg) in this game? It has the reverb AND the sound. (In fact many sounds.)
    Good question! The 202 is a very desirable amp and for most, small. For me, and countless freelancers in NY and other congested areas, a borderline case. Here, the price steps in as well: 699€ at Thomann, while the much smaller but equally potent Gnome and BAM200 remain in the 150-175€ ballpark. I call these intelligent power amps, because they are voiced to work alone but take pedals well. The Darkglass is so new that the price hasn't settled: 385€ in Tampere, 499€ at Gear4Music. If I didn't make the 6.5" Metros, I probably wouldn't be making noises here. Yet, there's 360 Metros out there, mostly powered by SuperBlocks and BAMs. If only these two amps had a baby!

  12. #11

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    I love TB202. No news there. As an ex-Boogieman it seems extremely small and light to me, but I'm not going to the gig on a bike. It has built in power supply which evens the field slightly.

  13. #12

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    A question, do the bass sounds boomy on this type of amp? I had a fender rumble and it was impossible to set the bass eq to make it sound correct. I'm looking for a more powerful alternative to my dv mark little jazz and these types of amps are affordable.

  14. #13

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    Not sure if this would qualify for "micro", but this is what I've been playing with my big band for the past three years:
    Amp mystery-dsslrl5sigwes_056-jpg

    Acoustic Image SL-R S4 head, 2lbs, 10oz (1.2kg), 300wrms continuous @ 8ohms, 500wrms @ 4ohms.

    AI Doubleshot Cab, 15lbs, 2 x 10" side-firing, 5" front firing, 4ohms. Covers the band, projects well to the audience, sounds great.

    Doesn't take up much space on stage:

    Amp mystery-20231214_200816-jpg

    I've seen one person complain about the 10k shelving treble control frequency--I rarely use it and when I do it seems fine.

    I drive to all my gigs and almost always get to park close to the stage entrance. Everything is in a drum bag which is bungeed to a luggage wheelie, about 25lbs total:

    Amp mystery-doubleshot_124-jpg

    Danny W.
    Last edited by Danny W.; 10-12-2024 at 08:17 PM.

  15. #14

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    Nice rig Danny. That Double Shot is an interesting concept. I think it's light enough to be micro.

  16. #15

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    Another vote for the Quilter TB202 around 5 lbs,small footprint,huge headroom, and wonderful Clean Tone!

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    All of the good class D power amps sound pretty much the same
    I've had four class D power amps and yes, they sound similar, very transparent, very little colouration of sound, but some class D power amps are quieter than others. The Behringer A800 is transparent and has low noise for an inexpensive amp, but not as quiet a noise floor as other more expensive Class D amplifiers. (Edit: According to Audiophile posts.)

    I only mention the Behringer A800 as an alternative amplifier to the usual choices. Obviously, you know more than me.

    (For clarification, the Behringer A800 is a power amplifier, not the usual guitar/bass amp with built in preamp.)
    Last edited by GuyBoden; 10-13-2024 at 05:45 AM.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    Good question! The 202 is a very desirable amp and for most, small. For me, and countless freelancers in NY and other congested areas, a borderline case. Here, the price steps in as well: 699€ at Thomann, while the much smaller but equally potent Gnome and BAM200 remain in the 150-175€ ballpark. I call these intelligent power amps, because they are voiced to work alone but take pedals well. The Darkglass is so new that the price hasn't settled: 385€ in Tampere, 499€ at Gear4Music. If I didn't make the 6.5" Metros, I probably wouldn't be making noises here. Yet, there's 360 Metros out there, mostly powered by SuperBlocks and BAMs. If only these two amps had a baby!
    The market of TB202 is a bit mystery. I suppose they are quite popular, in Thomann they are #3 in transistor amps. But are they really so loved amps that there is no second hand market for them at all? At least here in EU. I have seen more used Buds and Blus for sale here than TB202s, and they are rarities too.

    As You pointed in OP, BAM, Gnome and Darkglass do not have reverb. I like reverb, so for me they don't exist.

    I had the BAM200 once for a while and despite it sounded like instant Polytone, which I love, it had only one voice, so it felt surprisingly restrictive. With TB202 I can get that sound, but many others too.

    But if the question is "what is smaller and cheaper than TB202" the TB202 is probably not a right answer!

  19. #18

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    I’m wondering if anyone here has tried a Vox MV50 mini amp with a Toob (see, e.g., Vox MV50 AC Head review | MusicRadar)? The MV50 is yet another class D design, but this one has a tiny Vox-proprietory “valve” in the preamp. No reverb, though.

    I’ve not tried one, but have been intrigued by them for a while. They are cheap, too. Anyone?
    Last edited by geoff23; 10-14-2024 at 06:49 AM.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    Modern bass cabs and amps are excellent for jazz guitar. [...] Most bass drivers cover a wide enough frequency range for a traditional electric jazz guitar tone, and tweeters are found in many bass amps and cabs to provide a full frequency range if you want it.

    Back in the day, traditional bass amps had little or no high frequency response because it wasn't wanted or needed for electric basses until the advent of modern bass tones like Jaco's and modern playing styles like Grahaming. Today, e-bass is a full spectrum instrument with wide range active pickups, multiple effects, etc. Also, the music now requires an extended high end for fast transients as well as modern tone.
    Exactly what a bass-playing colleague explained to me "back in the day" of the mid 90s when he was the only one with a free input to plug in an electric violin and I commented on how I got all the highs I expected. ("Electric" here means it had a piezo, so a very different animal from an e-guitar also in this aspect.)

    I don't really see the problem here; doesn't every self-respecting e-guitarist already have a pedalboard built for his or her signature sound regardless of what downstream system is going to produce the sound?

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by geoff23
    Vox MV50 mini [...] are cheap, too.
    They look cool too. Almost like a household or kitchen appliance






  22. #21

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    Fuchs ODH. 2,5kg, Tube pre and tube limiter. Sounds amazing clean and overdriven. 150-300 watts depending on the speaker you choose to use.

    It really does the Robben Ford Thing and the cleans are great!

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB View Post
    I don't really see the problem here; doesn't every self-respecting e-guitarist already have a pedalboard built for his or her signature sound regardless of what downstream system is going to produce the sound?
    That's only true if the end system has at leasts some treble output. Many of the most commonly used effects need high frequency response (at least in the 5 to 8 kHz range). Distortion is based on the introduction of high order odd harmonics that result from sharp waveforms (sawtooth, triangle, square etc). A simple single driver bass speaker cab will make little sound above 5k, so a lot of the distortion components will be lost and it won't sound right. Similarly, a lot of time and phase based effects need highs that won't pass a simple bass cab. Modern bass cabs with tweeters are fine for this, but many old school bass amps are not. I tried with a B15N and it was not a success - my bandleader asked me to get a "better" amplifier for rock (it was a wedding band).

    Guitar amps have a bit more up top. But even so, having a tweeter in the system makes it much better..

  24. #23

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    I own a Vox MV50 Clean - Compact Guitar Amp Head.

    It was a brand new product when I bought it as my first guitar amplifier.

    It didn't last for long.

    It's now dead and has been for at least 2 years.

    The sound was very clean, yes, I could've used it once in a while if in working order.

    Trying to repair it is very much a no go.
    Soldering on the tiny print card is nigh impossible.
    I've seen it shown in a YouTube The Guitologist video.

  25. #24

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    I get strange vibes seeing these quite old Toob demo videos popping up here. We've come a long way since - in fact, to 795 cabs as of today. The VOX MV50 series was revolutionary on introduction, and the Clean and Rock versions were our main demo amps at the 2018 Guitar Summit in Mannheim. Sliced between Hughes & Kettner and Bluguitar, we held our own in the decibels race. With a 19V power supply, these 50W rated amps are bound to break early. The sound is in-your-face if you ask me. Yet, there's rock folks still using them at the end of a pedalboard. The handle that makes them look like a travel iron serves no purpose. Quite a few of more versatile/better sounding micro-amps have been introduced since.
    Last edited by Gitterbug; 10-14-2024 at 04:33 PM.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug View Post
    I get strange vibes seeing these quite old Toob demo videos popping up here. We've come a long way since - in fact, to 795 cabs as of today. The VOX MV50 series was revolutionary on introduction, and the Clean and Rock versions were our main demo amps at the 2018 Guitar Summit in Mannheim. Sliced between Hughes & Kettner and Bluguitar, we held our own in the decibels race. With a 19V power supply, these 50W rated amps are bound to break early. The sound is in-your-face if you ask me. Yet, there's rock folks still using them at the end of a pedalboard. The handle that makes them look like a travel iron serves no purpose. Quite a few of more versatile/better sounding micro-amps has been introduced since.
    Ah - sorry - as you were. I didn’t realise they were prev-generation!