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Hello,
i am a classical guitarist looking for a new guitar.
I have started to play jazz recently with the Joe Pass books on my classical guitar and now i want to experiment the sound of a jazz guitar
I only have one guitar (my classical) and i have little experience with electric/archtop.
I would like to spend 2000€ max and i want something that will last and that i won't feel the need to change in the next years !
What i'm looking for ?
My aim is to play solo guitar A la Joe Pass as he is one of my favorite player and a great source of inspiration. I also really like Emily Remler ! Not the same approach and energy but it shows the variety of what i'm looking for in terms of sound/playing style.
Also :
- not a big guitar, 16" max and shorter scale than my classical which is 650mm (25.6").
- a cutaway, because i currently don't have one and it'll be an improvement
- great playability
- a guitar with a decent acoustic sound in order to practice quietly.
I have seen those guitars (in the same brand, the expensive one first, then the cheaper option):
- Eastman T49/v --- Eastman AR372
- D'angelico Excel SS Soho --- Premier SS
- Ibanez AF2000 --- AF95
The first question is, does the more expensive guitar is really better ? Do i get a better experience ?
Secondly, those guitars are all made in Asia, is there a huge gap with a us made guitar ?
What do you think ?
Thank you very much
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10-10-2024 05:42 AM
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I also started with classical guitar and while initially I was thinking about arch-tops, I actually went for a Telecaster as my first electric because, as they say, it really can do it all! Recently, I started thinking about archtops and semis again so i looked at some of the guitars you've mentioned. Also, are you set on archtops as opposed to say a semi-hollow, and if so, for what reason?
D'Angelicos are well made, you really can't find fault in the construction and finish but the Korean semi-hollow model I tried, a Deluxe DC, didn't really wow me at all (objectively good instrument, but lacked mojo); also not much volume unplugged. As for archtop models, I tried the Excel EXL-1 and it was a very nice instrument, better sounding unplugged, but it was just too big for me at 17".
Re: the Ibanez guitars, my guitar teacher used to play a Chinese made AFJ95 during lessons and in his hands it sounded great both amped and unplugged. It was also a well made guitar. Personally I don't like the current models because they use linden for body woods and poplar on the cheaper models. While I don't really care where a guitar is made, I am a bit of a traditionalist/snob when it comes to the woods used. He also has a Japanese Ibanez George Benson which I think should be similar to the AF2000 and that instrument is pretty much flawless.
Have a look at Ibanez PM3C, single pickup jazzbox (i don't remember if it's 16" or 17" tho). Look up Tim Lerch's videos with this guitar on YT, it kinda proves the point that low priced guitars can sound amazing if you know what you're doing.
In my search for a new guitar I almost bought a Guild Starfire IV. It's made in Korea if that matters to you, semi-hollow mahogany body, Dynasonic style pickups and that thing was spicy af. Probably not the best for a traditional jazz sound, but it definitely had a voice of its own. Unplugged, it was also resonant and had very good volume. I didn't buy it because it was a showroom model sold at full price and it had a few marks from over-zealous cleaning.
I also looked at Epiphones, the current production Casino model, and i was not impressed with the construction; everything about that guitar was screaming poor build quality - the underside of the edge of the F-hole was rough and there were splinter-like strips of wood dangling.
And this leads me to my final comment re: your question about Asia vs US guitars: it really depends. Personally I feel it's more about politics and marketing induced perception of who is capable of creating and offering quality. If the wood is good, the factory takes pride in their work, they will make a good instrument. You can find low-priced instruments made in China or Indonesia that are excellent and would be on par with a US built one just as easily as you can find poor quality US made instruments (ahem, current production Gibsons). I would make my choice based on unplugged feel (volume, resonance), woods used, workmanship.
Sorry for the wall of text, hope my thoughts help somewhat
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Originally Posted by Monica.N
For guitars, you are essentially limited to three scale lengths (648 mm, 635 mm, and 628 mm). The sounds you cite came mostly from guitars with 628 mm scale lengths and plywood (or "laminate") tops; Pass's ES175 and Remler's ES330 were both fully hollow, and had mahogany necks and rosewood fingerboards.
To get to the point, I think you might be best served by a semihollow or fully hollow thinline guitar, like a Gibson ES335 or ES330 but cheaper. I don't know what's available in Europe, but you might look at Epiphone ES335, Broadway (not thin), or Emperor (not thin); Ibanez AF, AS or AG line (you won't find an AF2000 in your price range) or a PM3 or lower-priced George Benson; d'Angelico Premier line; Sire guitars; maybe Peerless guitars. Without knowing for sure whether your 2000€ budget includes an amp and cables, you should be able to find a suitable guitar for 1500€ or less.
I'm not familiar with what's stocked by European guitar stores, but in the USA there are mostly solid bodies and a few semi-hollows; for fully-hollow electric guitars you mostly have to buy over the web, so make sure your vendor has a good return policy.
Is more expensive better? That depends. Unless you're experienced with these kinds of guitars, probably not. Avoid the cheapest ones, but there are a wealth of decent guitars in the US$800-$1800 range that would serve admirably.
Will it sound "decent" acoustically? That depends on what "decent" means to you. To me, such guitars have enough volume to be heard for practicing without an amp, but they don't sound anything like a mid-priced or better flattop. Serviceable, but not concert quality. That's why you need an amp.
Are USA-made guitars better? Maybe, if you're spending thousands of dollar-equivalents. No, in the price range you're contemplating. Japanese and Korean-made guitars seem to be the best of the Asian-made instruments, but guitars from other manufacturing countries can be pretty good.
No guitar is necessarily a forever-guitar. Get something that's good enough for now but not TOO cheap, and as you learn more, gain experience, and build chops you'll be able to make a more informed choice later if you decide you want a change (as most guitarists seem to, after a few years). In your cited price range you'll be able to find a guitar and amp that will serve you very well.
Good luck.
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Dear Monica N, you WILL get some great advice here. A variety, and a good overview of the current guitar offerings.
I too play classical guitar, and I love the acoustic aspect of playing a guitar. It is most rewarding. I say this because: playing an electric guitar is not the same, for me.
I love playing acoustic guitars, and I love playing my electric guitars UNPLUGGED. When I plug them into an amp, things change. The sound of course, but also the feel, response, and maybe it's the aural connection > strings> amp> speaker> room! I play differently then, and not always better!
I really really like my re-issue 1961 Epiphone Casino. One of the best guitars I have ever played (I have played many guitars and owned many expensive ones). My Casino was a limited run, so they are hard to find now.
But it is completely hollow so it has a great JAZZ flavor. IT is a high quality Epiphone, and not like the lower-end Casinos. Perhaps you could look for a better Casino.
But I have often thought about a hybrid Classical guitar. One with electronics! And a cutaway. Some even have shorter scale necks. You might be "right at home" comfortable with one, and be very versatile, classical music or jazz!. With an amp, you could add reverb and other effects.
I understand the attraction of something new, but I have found "new" things can sometimes lead to results that don't quite meet my hopes. But you will go on exploring, and finding new aspects in music, that cannot always be anticipated.
I know I have.
Many many guitar choices out there. Eastman, new Epiphones and more. My preference is for hollow bodied guitars for the acoustic experience, and for "real" jazz connections, like the famous players used.
What jazzlover fat said above is true. Not all Gibsons are great, and if they are "good", are they worth $3000 - 4000 more? Not to me. Asian guitars are vastly better than they used to be, so keep looking, and play as many as you can.
This is a good place for really good advice, so stay in contact. There are a number of participants based in Europe here, so you will have good company and kindred spirits. Bon vivant.
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Godin make beautiful guitars at affordable prices in Quebec, especially the 5th Avenue and Montreal Premiere ranges.
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Bonjour, Monica, et bienvenue!
There's an ocean of choices, including used guitars, so you might want to narrow the search by whatever you prioritize: bout size and depth, scale length, unplugged tone, even brand. I have gone through a vast number of archtops and semi-hollows representing different brands, price points and manufacturing countries. Over the years, Asian quality has gone up tremendously (Japan has been there since 1970 and Korea since 1980s). If I had to focus on one brand, it would be Ibanez. I would also look at the secondhand market, because even laminated guitars tend to improve over time. And if you know somebody with experience in jazz guitars, don't hesitate to ask him/her to help you. Depending where you are based, there may or may not be a music store nearby, which may or may not possess jazz guitar specific know-how. I know this isn't too helpful, but you will have to invest some hands-on time in the search process.
PS With your classical background, you might want to have a look at the Godin A series hybrid guitars, with both magnetic and piezo pickup for a broad variety of tones. The corresponding nylon-stringed Multiacs are simply fantastic.Last edited by Gitterbug; 10-12-2024 at 01:24 PM.
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Hi, I had to give up on the AF2000 after more than a year long wait (after which my local guitar shop closed!!) and I'm not the only one with a ridiculously long wait story, regarding that model. That guitar is hard to get and takes months and months to arrive (even from shops such as Thomann).
I'm a small guy, with small hands so my main guitar is a (luthier made) GB10 size and shape guitar with a short scale length ("Byrdland" 23,5") and a slim neck. I think you might like the Ibanez GB10 (try one first, though, if you can). The SE (made in Indonesia) version is within your price-range. You might also want to check out a new Epiphone Joe Pass model...
Bonne chance!
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Thank you for all your answers !
First of all the budget is just for the guitar.
I am not set on archtop, i will be happy i guess with a semi hollow or a thinline hollow body
About the question "is more expensive better ?"
For example i was looking at two models in the eastman range :
Eastman T49/v 2000€ new vs Eastman AR372 1500€
I can find a used AR372 for 1000€ so do i get a huge step in quality/sound/playing by paying 1000€ more for a T49 ?
I have tried some epiphone by the past and i was not impressed by the feel of the neck/playability but it may have changed since.
I saw the multiple variaitons of the GB10 Ibanez as well, the SE is 1500€ here and the GB10 about 3000€. Again do you know if there is a huge gap between those models ?
for the question "Will it sound "decent" acoustically?", i don't want a pure accoustic sound but something enough to practice at night and here myself.
I will have another look at Godin but i didn't find the sound impressive in the demos i've heard.
Thanks again !
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Originally Posted by Monica.N
I think the hollowbodies would scratch that itch nicely. Both the Premier SS and the AR372 have a good acoustic sound which means they are satisfying to play unplugged. The Eastmans tend to have quite a wide flat fretboard that may suit you as well. I'd probably go for the Eastman if pressed.
A semi is more versatile but less satisfying IMO for solo guitar. That said I use a 335 a lot.
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Originally Posted by Monica.N
There is a quality gap between GB10 and GB10 SE... if I were to lose all my guitars I' would probabily spend the buck for 1 guitar, a GB10 and never look back.
However, I feel the "quality gap" is much smaller than the price gap, if you see what I mean...
The overall sound quality also depends on the amplifier you choose.
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Bonjour Monica,
This one should fit your requirements perfectly:
Just a moment...
I have the same guitar, and when I showed it to both a classical luthier and my new CG teacher they were quite impressed. The luthier for the build quality and sound, the teacher that it was so much easier on the fingers than he expected, and sounded so much better than any other "folk" he'd ever tried (then again he's a very traditional classical guitarist).
You're welcome to come try her if you're in the right part of France for that!
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I think you're on the right track and prefer the Eastman options in your budget, especially if you like how the neck feels.
I had a P90 Loar that I never really bonded with or appreciated acoustically. I'm a fan of old Korean Epiphone hollowbodies but they don't have much of an acoustic voice and can feel heavy (I find jazz guitars heavy more often since my background was gypsy jazz).
I got an Eastman AR503ce this year and after swapping the Seymour Duncan Seth Lover pickup for an underwound Gibson 57 Classic and setting it up with Thomastik Swing 11s (the forum's favorite flatwound strings) I really like it.
The Eastmans are an affordable way to get a carved spruce top and the thin bodies like the 503 and the this one from the For Sale section are lightweight and comfortable.
Eastman T146SM (Reduced $)
My next comment might be a minority view: I prefer jazz guitars with a set humbucker or P90 (i.e. a pickup mounted in the guitar's top) because you can adjust the distance of the pickup and pole pieces to the strings, offering a lot of fine tuning of the tone.
On my Epihone and Eastman I much prefer the electric tone with a slant so the bass side is a bit farther from the low E than the treble side. I saw a clip of Tim Lerch reviewing that laminate Pat Matheny Ibanez and he mentioned preferring the same slant for its Charlie Christian pickup. Even with that adjustment I also like the pole pieces raised/lowered to even the volume of each string.
The Godin jazz boxes I've played do have a nice acoustic tone and I'd probably pick one of those over another Loar. And honestly for playing at home I still appreciate the quiet/dead acoustic tone of an Epihone hollowbody. I suspect with a background in classical you might want to bypass the muted acoustic sound of laminate top guitars and that's what brings me back to something like an Eastman since carved top jazz guitars get expensive quickly.
Here's a pic of the AR503ce:
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I'd expect that someone in France looking to spend 2000€ max on a guitar will probably want to avoid putting around 500€ in shipping and import fees (plus, that Eastman is shipped via CONUS, that weird carrier that only delivers inside the north-American territories)
A shipment from Japan will incur import fees too, but that LH650 is 2/3 the price of the Eastman and there are no shipping fees (here those are included in the sum over which the import fees are calculated!).
Godin archtops are full-laminates. While they have a decent acoustic sound for that design it's still as if there's a mute somewhere (well, there is of course) and I wouldn't suggest such an instrument (or one with set PU and controls) to a classical guitarist who indicates that the acoustic sound is also of importance. That's bound to lead to frustration.
Those Loar archtops are versatile enough to allow different players to achieve very different sounds. Here's one in Harry Volpe composition that could easily be a classical work:
That instrument was sold to youtuber "daddystovepipe" who gets a very different sound with it.
(An LH-650 is basically the same instrument with a cut-away, a modern neck and a KA floating pickup.)
The only budget/factory-build archtop I might be tempted to replace my Loar with is an Eastman AR605CE, i.e. mahogany B&S that ought to tame the flat-toppy "brilliance" of its acoustic sound a bit.
Something I have wondered about: if you're looking for an electric sound also for practising/playing at home, is it even possible to get that with an instrument that also has a decent acoustic voice if you also want to think about the neighbours, your tympans and not wear heavy sound-blocking headphones?
EDIT:
Originally Posted by HiFi Mule2Ride
A simple crossover will probably not give the inspiration that comes from getting a much more different instrument. But: it should be possible to find a used Slaman Dome for slightly over the cited budget (last year I had several options for around 2500€). Those instruments sound very different from a flat-top crossover at least and they have a more capable pickup system (RMC Gold). The 45mm nutwidth will make the playing experience very different for the left hand too...
For a budget crossover I'd look at the Cort OC8 Gold Nylon. I saw one for under 900€ here in France the other day, they go for a bit over 1k usually. It's an OM-shaped "modern classical" with Fishman UST+internal mic Blend system (so a bit easier to get a decent amplified sound) and one of the very few crossovers to have X-bracing. All-solid woods too, contrary to the Taylor 214CE-N. (This one has me very intrigued myself in fact; I'm really curious how it stacks up to a regular classical acoustically.)Last edited by RJVB; 10-12-2024 at 09:09 AM.
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Originally Posted by HiFi Mule2Ride
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Don’t assume that laminate guitars are necessarily acoustically dead. The AR372 is surprisingly loud. Actually all Eastmans are big sounding guitars unplugged.
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Originally Posted by RJVB
Op references Joe pass. Laminate jazz box with set in pickups a good fit.
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You might want to consider the new Ibanez Pat Metheny PM3C model that recently became available. I'm sure enjoying mine (as is Tim Lerch). 15.75" lower bout, 1 11/16" nut, short scale, 24.75". $1600.00 in the U.S.
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I'm a jazz player who has as my roots classical guitar. It's always been my sensibility and the standard I aim for in touch, response, balance and articulation.
For those reasons I found my own personal favourite in the size of the Ibanez George Benson guitars. The 15" size was ideal and feel and balance was a natural extension of my own classical needs.
But they are not optimized for playing acoustic, nor getting an acoustic feel, especially on that all important attack, which I believe I could get the most from a solid wood 15" guitar.
This left me with very few choices. Eastman made a 15" archtop which was ideal but no longer made and EXTREMELY rare now. So now enter my ideal solution: The custom hand built 15" solid wood archtop from China.
A few years ago the top luthiers from Eastman struck out on their own and started the Yunzhei guitar company which essentially took off from where Eastman left off. Some of the highest quality builds and materials available (you can also order a wood upgrade if you want AAA graded wood), and they'll build it for you. That means if you want a slightly wider fingerboard for playing chordal work more comfortably, no problem. If you want any colour lacquer finish, they'll do it. If you want to plug it in, it comes with a pickup on it. If you want to play acoustic, the instrument is fully acoustic.
15" size with or without a cutaway, even your own logo if you want on the headstock.
You can get a custom built 15" guitar delivered to your door for under $1,300 USD. But also factour in having a good luthier at your end set it up. Although they come beautifully built, the change in climate and other shipping factours will necessitate a good set up. I am a luthier so I regularly level the frets perfectly flat, set the action down at the nut and the bridge and relieve the neck to the string choice of the customer.
Of course they can build anything from 15"-18" and I've played a 16" built by them and it was very nice. Any scale you want can be made and I have smaller hands, I asked for a neck of a specific depth (based on a guitar I love) and they did it. I can play my custom guitar all day and the comfort is exceptional. For me, comfort was the reason I went with a custom. It turned out the sound was better than anything I could get elsewhere.
Consider this option. I've had nothing but the most astounded and pleased results from players (classical players among them) who have told me this is exactly what they wanted but could not find.
It's one option. It happens to be the one I choose in your situation.
Good luck and best wishes for your finding the perfect guitar.Last edited by Jimmy blue note; 10-12-2024 at 07:02 PM.
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I have to say that i'm not very interested in nylon jazz guitar. I already can play jazz on my classical guitar so i'm really looking for something else.
As i said i'm aiming for the Joe Pass style, i'm also listening to Pasquale Grasso !
In order of importance i'm looking for :
1. Playability
2. Size 16", scale 25" max
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Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
I've found an old, 9 year long, thread about them.
Yunzhi Guitars?
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Something like this would scratch your Joe Pass itch and check all of your boxes without breaking the bank: Just a moment...
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Those Epiphone ES 175 Premium s are nice guitars. I almost bought one! And I am fussy!
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Originally Posted by Monica.N
All that said, if we're talking regular factory production guitars, more money generally buys you wood that's more carefully selected and dried, which makes it more stable (and possibly better sounding), better workmanship, nicer finishes, more careful build, usually more durable hardware, and often better sounding pickups (with caveats for the subjectivity of that).
Originally Posted by Monica.N
No difference in quality of construction, materials and playability. All Eastman guitars at every price point are very well made. What you will get for more money is a different finish and a somewhat different sound. Whether that's better or not is subjective. A lot of people play AR372's.
Originally Posted by Monica.N
Originally Posted by Monica.N
Originally Posted by Monica.NOriginally Posted by Monica.N
Originally Posted by Monica.N
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Originally Posted by frabarmus
Another nice thing about the Worn Casinos is that they are cheaper than regular ones, because the finish took less work! Some really great instruments are produced in China now.
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First of all : welcome to the forum !
As you are in France, you may consider this Eastman AR503CE:
Guitare eastman jazz d’occasion - Zikinf
< 2k€ (even new, but this one is priced like a bargain !)
16" width and just above 2.5" thickness
25" scale
1.75" nut width
Solid spruce top, ebony fingerboard
Very comfortable to play
Acoustic sound is good enough for practice
It is well built with top quality, fit and finish.
I am a happy owner for nearly 10 years and this is my go-to guitar if I want to practice unplugged
Do you want to play with an amp some time, or just acoustic ?
More than one way to play guitar
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