The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #126
    Thanks Tal!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    does it raise any red flags that the bridge is adjusted so high? it looks like it would barely go higher if neededAttachment 116140

    Looks great!

  4. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    just ordered some 14 gauge strings I hope I don't need to mess around with the setup
    I play 14 80/20s on my eagle, I have to play with low action now as my hands are aging but Im amazed how effortless and buzz free it plays (not doing much bending). I did take it to my luthier/tech who dialed it in and complimented how easy it plays and sounds. Im not sure what secret mojo he did but I had it sounding,playing real good he got it real real really good. Congratulations on your new truly world class guitar. Id like to add ,that at this level "what beats an L5?" depends whos playing. The same L5 played by 2 different players sounds like 2 different guitars so theres truly no answer but to my ear the great L5s are pre norlin "Cs" acoustic but if its a great player they will make any fine guitar sound "better". As a kid I got to hear Bucky and JS in my buddies living room playing D'angelicos made for them and the then new Gibson JS among others....what beats an L5? anything played by a great player including your new Eagle.

  5. #129
    I put 12s on instead of 14s, and it's a good thing I did because I could barely get my low E to fit in the tail piece! I also think any bigger would need filing the nut.

  6. #130

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    Thats funny...I have their finger tailpiece on my '90 S 16 and put 56s on the bass no problem. That was a long time ago and I was told for a while they were not using them because of cost (hearsay) mabey different supplier. That could be a real deal killer for some players. Glad your using 12s and they will be easier on the hands, I bet it sounds killer!

  7. #131
    It does sound killer. It has a good jazz tone even acoustically. But yeah, I was surprised; I had to cut the little fabric winding off with a razor blade to make it fit.

  8. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    $5,000 approx budget. Needs to sound good acoustic and electric. Solid top. Full depth. What would you recommend? I may get an L5 but I want to check for words of warning or wisdom here first.
    What beats the L-5? That's a question I never expected. How about a hammer?

    There are lots of replies already, including options that sound good but cost less.

    Many of us love the L-5. You can start with the elegant appearance. Listen to the sound it produces in the hands of an artist expressing feelings. There is nothing missing.

    A hole in my life is that Wes Montgomery died before I could see him in person. Instead, I wore out his vinyls. The videos I saw didn't suggest he was unhappy with his L-5. He seemed very at peace with the instrument. I don't think this had to do with a Gibson contract.

    Growing up in Kalamazoo and hanging out with the families who worked at Gibson, I can tell you the employees were proud of the L-5 in particular. There were other archtops that were more expensive, but those were felt to be mostly for show or for the very few with excess money. But for a working guitarist playing jazz, it was the L-5.

    I don't have an L-5 now. But some time ago, that was the only guitar I had. There is something special about them.

    There are those who love the Les Paul Custom. There can be an awe in seeing and holding that instrument. The same can be true of the L-5. That instrument is not the sum of its parts. It's the whole package with its aura.

    Here is a tune with Jimmy Smith and Wes Montgomery. I never tire of this. Anything that someone criticises on this recording is at worst just some added character.



    Here's some historical analysis.


  9. #133

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    Just another jab at L5 lovers, MC has 2 of his in the for sale Id take over any L5 for less than a decent condition Gibson, just sayin....
    My wifes people are from Kalamazoo also but the pride of Kalamazoo now is called Heritage which continues a roughly 100yr culture of guitar building in the place the truly great Gibsons were once made by the people that are still there following that history.

  10. #134

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    I think the OP's original intention was not "what is better than an L5?" but rather "what is a better value than an L5?". Two different questions.

    Better? My opinion is probably nothing in the "CES" bag. There are other guitars that are fancier and other guitars that cover different territory (acoustic archtops, laminates, etc.). But fancier doesn't mean objectively better.

    Better value? Sure. I own guitars from Campellone, the 'old guard' at Heritage, and 'lesser' Gibsons like the L-7 that I would say equal my L-5. All of those carry lower price tags too.

  11. #135

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    The question of "What Beats an L5" is open for interpretation, since it is totally subjective. It' like asking "What Beats a Cadillac", or "What Beats a Ferrari". As far a tone, there's a few other guitars that come to mind that can be up to par, or better, as far playability and value, the list gets a little bigger. However, as far as an investment, the L5 is golden! It is the most recognizable, popular, and widely owned archtop, and it's pretty much money in the bank.



    Cheers,
    Arnie...

  12. #136
    It's more like I was asking "what other full size SUVs with these features should I consider before I buy a cadillac escalade, but I apparently don't have enough money for a cadillac escalade" lol

  13. #137

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    I dunno. Having owned 3 I’d rather have a Trenier.

  14. #138

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    Part of the pleasure of an L5ces or WesMo is really not the guitar itself, it's sound, or whatever. It's the history. This guitar, along with the ES175, was there at the founding, the creation. When you hold an L5ces, you are standing in the stream of great jazz guitar music that goes back almost to the beginning of jazz. As an archaeologist/historian, I really love that sense of time and continuity.

    Others, or course, might not care about this aspect, and that's fine. For the "a guitar is just a tool for making music" player, all this historical stuff is just verbiage. But if you are blessed/cursed with a love for the tradition and the history of the music, "just as good/better than the L5 isn't going to satisfy.

  15. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    I put 12s on instead of 14s, and it's a good thing I did because I could barely get my low E to fit in the tail piece! I also think any bigger would need filing the nut.
    Would a guitar tech be able to file the tail piece to accommodate 14 gauge strings? Is changing out a tailpiece very simple or is there more to it than what it seems? Are they standard hole spacing? my favorite looking ones are bennedetto style but they have some sort of weird fastener

  16. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Would a guitar tech be able to file the tail piece to accommodate 14 gauge strings? Is changing out a tailpiece very simple or is there more to it than what it seems? Are they standard hole spacing? my favorite looking ones are bennedetto style but they have some sort of weird fastener
    There is nothing "weird" about the Benedetto tailpiece system. Although many here on the forum would argue and rant that the L-5 iconic tailpiece is part of the charm and sound of the L-5, and I would tend to agree, it's just a different approach that is/was part of Bob's philosophy.
    In order to attach the Benedetto style tailpiece, you need a so-called Sacconi type of cable much like a violin or cello to anchor to the endpin. A small piece of binding is needed to cushion the cable where it bends over the top plate. Here's my 90 Benedetto's set up. Note I installed a strap pin to take the pressure off the endpin jack:
    What beats an L5?-tail-jpg
    The ball end of the strings require nothing more than a slight bend to catch the eyelet in the tailpiece. I've done this so many times during a string change I don't even think about it:
    What beats an L5?-strings-jpg

    So yes, it's possible to do this on your Heritage. However, along the way some builders got smart and produced a metal tailpiece with a wood facia-looks great and easier to retrofit. I would cite the tailpiece on my Eastman Pisano 880 as an example.

    Nothing really "beats" a L-5, however I am in the Benedetto camp and have been for 30+ years. It's a different approach and one of the reasons Bob is regarded as a innovator and master of Archtop construction.

    Enjoy your new guitar!

  17. #141
    Awesome post, thanks!!!

  18. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    does it raise any red flags that the bridge is adjusted so high? it looks like it would barely go higher if neededAttachment 116140

    Is the treble side adjusted just as high? I have seen guitars where one side has to be significantly higher than the other, which didn’t seem right to me.
    Keith

  19. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by SierraTango
    In order to attach the Benedetto style tailpiece, you need a so-called Sacconi type of cable much like a violin or cello to anchor to the endpin. A small piece of binding is needed to cushion the cable where it bends over the top plate. Here's my 90 Benedetto's set up. Note I installed a strap pin to take the pressure off the endpin jack:
    What beats an L5?-tail-jpg
    I’ve wanted to put one of these on my Ibanez AF207 for years. But the instructions for installing it specify the insertion of a bone “saddle” in the binding under the Sacconi cable:

    What beats an L5?-img_1890-jpeg
    Apart from its appearance, I’m not unhappy with the metal tailpiece that came on it. So I haven’t been motivated to spend the money on having the binding cut and spliced. But I see what appears to be a cover of some sort over the binding on yours, with holes where the cable crosses the edge. So the Sacconi connector is pressing directly on the original binding. What is that cover piece and why did you decide to use it instead of cutting the binding and adding the bone piece?

    I may be imagining it, but I think I see at least 2 linear irregularities of some kind in the top running roughly concentric with the binding and just inside it on the treble side of the tailpiece. There’s a small area along the one further from the binding that looks like a bit of the finish is lifting. Are these irregularities real or pictorial artifacts? If real, they make me think that the bone saddle is truly necessary to reduce long term effects of high pressure on the top from the two cable segments.
    Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 10-11-2024 at 01:23 PM. Reason: typo

  20. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by floatingpickup
    Is the treble side adjusted just as high? I have seen guitars where one side has to be significantly higher than the other, which didn’t seem right to me.
    Keith
    it's lower but nothing crazy

  21. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    I’ve wanted to put one of these on my Ibanez AF207 for years. But the instructions for installing it specify the insertion of a bone “saddle” in the binding under the Sacconi cable:

    What beats an L5?-img_1890-jpeg
    Apart from its appearance, I’m not unhappy with the metal tailpiece that came on it. So I haven’t been motivated to spend the money on having the binding cut and spliced. But I see what appears to be a cover of some sort over the binding on yours, with holes where the cable crosses the edge. So the Sacconi connector is pressing directly on the original binding. What is that cover piece and why did you decide to use it instead of cutting the binding and adding the bone piece?

    I may be imaging it, but I think I see at least 2 linear irregularities of some kind in the top running roughly concentric with the binding and just inside it on the treble side of the tailpiece. There’s a small area along the one further from the binding that looks like a bit of the finish is lifting. Are these irregularities real or pictorial artifacts? If real, they make me think that the bone saddle is truly necessary to reduce long term effects of high pressure on the top from the two cable segments.
    Hello Never, and thanks for your interest. Ironically I owned a AF207 for a few years, it was a fine instrument. Sold it when I went back to 6.
    I will answer your questions as best I can and include a couple more photos of the area. First, what I think you are referring to as a "cover piece" on the rim is the bone saddle that takes the pressure and tension from the Sacconi cable. Difficult to see, however the binding stops short of center and the bone cushion is not on top of binding. I did not do this, this was the way Bob did it in every Benedetto I've encountered. Second, I think what you are seeing in the photo is partly pictorial artifacts and some finish checking in the area. The guitar is approaching 35 years old in is no case queen, however the assembly is completely stable and the guitar stays in tune perfectly. IMHO, you need the bone saddle but I don't know if it would be critical to eliminate the binding beneath it.

    Bass Side:
    What beats an L5?-bass-side-jpg
    Treble Side:
    What beats an L5?-treb-jpg

  22. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Would a guitar tech be able to file the tail piece to accommodate 14 gauge strings? Is changing out a tailpiece very simple or is there more to it than what it seems? Are they standard hole spacing? my favorite looking ones are bennedetto style but they have some sort of weird fastener
    Yes any guitar tech should easily be able to file out your tailpiece ( it just needs a kiss) they would have the correct size and type of file and should not need to remove the tailpiece. Changing out the tailpiece to BB style will be expensive (if done right) and will not improve the guitar in any way except cosmetically (matter of opinion)

  23. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by SierraTango
    I will answer your questions as best I can and include a couple more photos of the area. First, what I think you are referring to as a "cover piece" on the rim is the bone saddle that takes the pressure and tension from the Sacconi cable. Difficult to see, however the binding stops short of center and the bone cushion is not on top of binding. I did not do this, this was the way Bob did it in every Benedetto I've encountered. Second, I think what you are seeing in the photo is partly pictorial artifacts and some finish checking in the area. The guitar is approaching 35 years old in is no case queen, however the assembly is completely stable and the guitar stays in tune perfectly. IMHO, you need the bone saddle but I don't know if it would be critical to eliminate the binding beneath it.
    Thanks! The bone saddle is obviously rounded and a bit protuberant, which makes sense. The illustration from the instructions makes it look as though the bone piece is more similar to the binding’s size and shape than it is. I wouldn’t take a chance on leaving the binding and covering it with a harder piece of something. If BB wanted it done the way yours is done, that’s how I’d do it. But I suspect it’s a lot easier to do when building the guitar than it is after the fact.

    The AF207 has been my main gigging archtop since I bought it in 1997. I put a Benedetto B7 pickup in it, and it’s been a wonderful guitar that still plays and looks like it did the day I picked it up. But the tailpiece has always looked a little tacky to me and I’d love to have a wooden one.

  24. #148

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    And this!

    What beats an L5?-img_1466-jpeg