Eastman pup Vs Benedetto (Duncan) vs Armstrong handwound

[coyote-1]

I’m considering a change to my AR610ce. I would create a new pickguard that would have no binding. It would have thumbwheel volume and tone controls, and a different pickup than the current Eastman. It would become a ”drop in replacement” that I could easily (using a mini plug/jack) remove and replace. So it would be like having two different archtop guitars tone-wise.

I’ve been trying to find useful sound samples, but not really having good luck. For anyone who has experienced all three of the listed pickups, which of the non-Eastman pups a) comes closest to a “classic archtop” sound while b) being as different as possible from the sound of the Eastman?

[Jimmy blue note]

It's not in your choices but I like the D'Armond Rhythm Chief. I mount it with a slot attachment attached to the underside of the pickguard which I make from wood. It's about as Classic archtop as you can get. Other than that I do like the Benedetto, and that has a solid warm presence that captures nuance and has a voice that does justice to the acoustics of a guitar.
Good luck!

[coyote-1]

It's not in your choices but I like the D'Armond Rhythm Chief. I mount it with a slot attachment attached to the underside of the pickguard which I make from wood. It's about as Classic archtop as you can get. Other than that I do like the Benedetto, and that has a solid warm presence that captures nuance and has a voice that does justice to the acoustics of a guitar.
Good luck!

I was going to say “if there are other choices to check out, please let me know” but I figured fans of a particular pickup would be eager to share. Thanks - will look into it!

[ThatRhythmMan]

I will second the DeArmond (FHC, RC1000, RC1100) pickups. Pete Biltoft can also custom wind an awesome pickup to give you what you’re looking for.


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[Cunamara]

What's your notion of the "classic archtop" sound?

It's a pretty wide span: Charlie Christian, Johnny Smith, Tal Farlow, Jim Hall (ES-175 P90 vs. Guild pickup, D'Aquisto guitar, Sadowsky which are all different), Wes Montgomery, George Benson, etc... but with the exception of Johnny Smith or George Benson, an archtop with floater isn't going to quite get those tones no matter what pickup you try. OTOH, if Peter Bernstein's tone is your jam, that's much closer to doable with your guitar and it's pretty damn classic. I have a custom Peter Biltoft PAF floater on my archtop which sounds great and is Bernstein-ish.

An alternative to the DeArmond 1000 and 1100 pickups, which are a classic sound all of their own, would be the Kent Armstrong floating single coil, which is tapped to approximate the P90 and the DeArmond using a switch. Two classic tones in one!

[gitman]

What's your notion of the "classic archtop" sound?

It's a pretty wide span: Charlie Christian, Johnny Smith, Tal Farlow, Jim Hall (ES-175 P90 vs. Guild pickup, D'Aquisto guitar, Sadowsky which are all different), Wes Montgomery, George Benson, etc... but with the exception of Johnny Smith or George Benson, an archtop with floater isn't going to quite get those tones no matter what pickup you try. OTOH, if Peter Bernstein's tone is your jam, that's much closer to doable with your guitar and it's pretty damn classic. I have a custom Peter Biltoft PAF floater on my archtop which sounds great and is Bernstein-ish.

An alternative to the DeArmond 1000 and 1100 pickups, which are a classic sound all of their own, would be the Kent Armstrong floating single coil, which is tapped to approximate the P90 and the DeArmond using a switch. Two classic tones in one!

THIS !! The KA single coil has the clear, balanced and kind of "raw" sound I heard from many vintage DeArmond 1100 pickups and with the correct pot and cap it's the no. 1 choice for me. Super for a fat/round solo tone and just as great for a thinned-out/ quasi-acoustic comping tone.

[coyote-1]

Thanks for all the input so far! In answer to some of the questions and suggestions, I’m getting good tones already (as I mentioned, I’m imagining being able to switch out one pickup-pickguard for the other whenever I wish). I’m getting tones VERY close to, say, Grant Green. And I can also get close to Bernstein’s tone.

I suppose Tal Farlow and Barney Kessel, perhaps Bruce Forman, are the sound model I’m imagining.

[RJVB]

What's your notion of the "classic archtop" sound?

My first reaction exactly, followed by "probably not what you (read: I) would think" (which would be the sound of the "classic archtops", the first versions of the L5 and family).

The AR6xx are very nice acoustic instruments, and if the OP's ever gets to enjoy "acoustic strings" there's also the PU that was developed for Ken Parker's archtops and that's supposed to work well with bronze or brass-wound strings.

[coyote-1]

THIS !! The KA single coil has the clear, balanced and kind of "raw" sound I heard from many vintage DeArmond 1100 pickups and with the correct pot and cap it's the no. 1 choice for me. Super for a fat/round solo tone and just as great for a thinned-out/ quasi-acoustic comping tone.

Sounds cool! I would want thumbwheel volume & tone controls, along with a micro DPST (thumbwheel style if possible??) switch. Soooo…. what are the correct pots and capacitor in that circumstance?

[bluejaybill]

The KA Single coil appears to be great, and I will add that the 12 pole floating humbucker of his is great as well. I have it on my Campellone, and it sounds very rich and full, almost like a built in, just a bit airier I would say.

If your current pickup is a single coil, it might be worth trying as a complementary sound, I also have a spare pick guard with a Lollar Johnnie Smith pickup. The pickguards both have volume and tone, and attach inside the guitar to a phono plug. So easy to switch from one to the other. But I rarely do, the Armstrong is just what I was looking for.

[Jimmy blue note]

I'm gonna chime in here and say that matching a floater to an acoustic archtop is a very personal and idiosyncratic thing. I've had some guitars that are a "match" with Benedettos, their acoustic sound is somehow complementary with the warmer sound of that (duncan built) pickup. I happen to like it on my Jimmy D and my Eastman. But for me (and that's a big qualifier), older Gibsons and well broken in older instruments with their rounder sound have a quality to them that D'Armond (even reissue rhythm chiefs) seem particularly good at preserving the quality of.

Add to this that to my ear, the qualities left in the string after being radiated into an acoustic body are very different, even inversely acoustic than the actual sound you hear coming from the guitar (I'm not going to get into the filtering effect on a string exerted by being coupled with an acoustic guitar).

What I'm saying is: Take other peoples' recommendations as commentaries on what they like and unfortunately, try options on your own guitar if you can. It's a trial and error process that has led me to install different floating pickups on different guitars.

Even Gibson BJB and Johnny Smith pickups are really nice in a good match.

[ccroft]

.... and I will add that the 12 pole floating humbucker of his is great as well. I have it on my Campellone, and it sounds very rich and full, almost like a built in, just a bit airier I would say....the Armstrong is just what I was looking for.

If you're talking about the full size black phenolic one I agree. I have it on a carved Lehmann. I've never done the switchable finger rest since I'm not looking for a different tone. Great idea though if I do get adventurous.

I switched out the stock pickup in my Eastman Pisano 880 for the set version. Voila! I also have it in a B-120. So that makes 3 archies with KA 12 pole all-blacks. It's nice to know what your like :)

It's a very common choice for a lot of boutique makers. There might be a reason. In addition: I play bronze on the Lehmann and this pickup balances perfectly. I guess the extra poles must help with that.

[coyote-1]

Ok… so the Eastman is built on essentially the Benedetto concept. Therefore, the KA “Benedetto spec” pickup would likely be a contender. And I love the idea of the KA 6 pole pickup that has two different outputs; I have this feature on my PRS 408, and it’s a great thing.

EDIT: found a good example of the KA 6 pole. Back and sides are maple and not mahogany like my 610, but it seems to be a good indicator of what I might expect if I get one. Putting the links here for later reference:

And here’s a Benedetto from 14 years ago. Dunno whether it’s Armstrong or Duncan:

[Cunamara]

Purely a matter of taste, to me the video with the Kent Armstrong single coil sounds much better than the video with the Benedetto. To me that sound is just sort of stringy and thin and I don't particularly like it. However, that's judging it as a solo instrument; when playing with a band, sometimes the thinner and stringier instrument ends up sounding much better because it sits in the mix more effectively. A dark, fat sounding guitar can get lost in the bass/bass drum frequencies and overshadowed by the cymbals as well as the horns. I don't think that would be an issue with that Kent Armstrong pickup.

I used to really seek that very dark sound, but fortunately have come to my senses and have developed an appreciation for a brighter sound a la Peter Bernstein among others.

[bluejaybill]

If you're talking about the full size black phenolic one I agree. I have it on a carved Lehmann. I've never done the switchable finger rest since I'm not looking for a different tone. Great idea though if I do get adventurous.

I switched out the stock pickup in my Eastman Pisano 880 for the set version. Voila! I also have it in a B-120. So that makes 3 archies with KA 12 pole all-blacks. It's nice to know what your like

It's a very common choice for a lot of boutique makers. There might be a reason. In addition: I play bronze on the Lehmann and this pickup balances perfectly. I guess the extra poles must help with that.

Yes, they are good pickups. I have one in my B-160 as well, but those are a proprietary pickup made for Borys and quite different from Armstrong's PAF style. It has ceramic magnets and a lot of windings, IIRC. I like that pickup OK but sometimes wish for something a bit warmer, like his PAF model.

[ccroft]

Thanks for the info bluejay. I knew those were specific to Borys, but didn't know in what way. I'll bet there's also some internal difference between the '4 lug' PAF I bought for my Eastman and the floater on my Lehmann. There all such different instruments it's tough to know exactly what contributes to the different characters. I'm going to be listening for a warmth difference.

[KirkP]

Eastman now uses the Lollar Johnny Smith pickup in the top of the line AR810CE. After listening to a few demos I’m considering putting one on my AR810CE, which still has the original Kent-Armstrong factory-made floater.

[Spook410]

If you're looking for the classic sound of a Gibson L5, not sure a pickup will get you there. I play Yunzhi's and Wu's similar to your Eastman quite a bit and find that Benedetto format archtops to be quite different from my Gibson archtops (L5 CES and a few others). The Gibson's sound more electric with that warm sound we're used to hearing on classic recordings. The Yunzhi's and Wu's are more lively, more acoustic, and offer more harmonic content. They are all good but the basic design and sound quality are just different.

That being said, on Benedetto format guitars I like Armstrong hand wound humbuckers because I think they compliment acoustic tones without getting too edgy.

[KirkP]

Ok… so the Eastman is built on essentially the Benedetto concept. Therefore, the KA “Benedetto spec” pickup would likely be a contender. And I love the idea of the KA 6 pole pickup that has two different outputs; I have this feature on my PRS 408, and it’s a great thing.

EDIT: found a good example of the KA 6 pole. Back and sides are maple and not mahogany like my 610, but it seems to be a good indicator of what I might expect if I get one. Putting the links here for later reference:

And here’s a Benedetto from 14 years ago. Dunno whether it’s Armstrong or Duncan:

The first video isn’t clear about how much is pickup vs microphone, and I don’t think the second video is plugged in at all, so I can’t conclude anything about the pickup.

[RJVB]

The first video isn’t clear about how much is pickup vs microphone

Yeah, with the right mix you can even make a stick-on piezo sound really good: