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So, i wanted to see what you guys do about feedback on archtops. My favorite archtop, my Ibanez PM-120 is the most feedback prone. Kind of surprising since it's also pretty small but it feeds back more than my L4, 175, Kessel and GB10.
When I studied with Pat Martino, he helped me stuff my L5 with cotton. We got over 5lb of cotton upholstery stuffing in that guitar. It weighed 11+ lbs when we finished. All his early records were recorded with a stuffed guitar.
Some people use plugs but doug's plugs is out of business. So I taped the F holes. With both F holes taped, feedback was all but eliminated. However, a lot of the guitar's glorious archtop sound was "muted" too. So, I pulled the tape off one of the F holes and it's much better. Still feeds back more than my 175 and Kessel but it's manageable now.
Not that noticeable either. If not for the black schmutz in the corner it would be pretty much invisible.
No issues with the finish in taking it off , either.
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08-28-2024 01:59 PM
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I keep my hand on the guitar to mute the strings. I played archtops in rock bands before I ever considered playing jazz so muting is second nature to me.
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I use a Boss Pro 5 band parametric to dial out the offending frequencies enough so the don't howl
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The size and number of speakers makes a bigger difference than volume; with my arch top through a Twin Reverb even at low volume with a light trio, the two 12" move too much air. Same level through a Princeton Reverb 10" was no problem, even if I sat on the amp.
However, with stage volume from a bigger horn band, the body will directly pick up the other instruments and spontaneously feed back. This is direct acoustic feedback from the other instruments, so adjusting guitar frequencies does little to mitigate it - need a damping strategy, either with how your hands play or something done directly to reduce the guitar's mechanical acoustic sensitivity.
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So the only laminate Archtop that avoids feedback a gig volumes,even with distortion.Benedetto Bambino.
Otherwise Jack Z it’s a crapshoot with different factors involved. By the way isn’t this why both Solid Body and Thinline guitars were invented,Lol!
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I use f-hole plugs with good results.
IMO, every guitar builder should be able to make such plugs individual adapted to the f- holes of the guitar.
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This thread is about archtops in general, so I think a word of caution is in order. I could be mistaken, but IIRC even the top Fujigen Ibanez models were finished in poly. My '97 AF207 is definitely poly, as was my '75 NAMM demo semi. Poly is pretty tough, so I wouldn't hesitate to tape it. But I don't think nitro or French polish will remain intact and unmarked if you tape it. So plugs of some kind are the only mechanical way I know to tame feedback in an achtop finished in nitro, FP etc without leaving visible evidence of the crime.
Originally Posted by jzucker
One of my Eastman archtops is finished with the new thin poly process. I don't know how thin it is, but I wouldn't put tape on it until we know from experience that it's tough enough to withstand both adhesive contact and the pull of removing the tape. And I don't plan to be the one to find out.
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This topic/debate has been discussed more times than Ginger/Maryanne.
Maybe you can hear a slight difference in your living room but imo when you're on a gig there's very little discernable difference in tone for plugs to be dismissed.
When I got my '69 L-5 over 30 yrs ago it had tape on the f holes and it wasn't easy to buff out the area once I removed it.
I've had Doug's plugs in it for maybe 20 yrs now and have no reason to take them out.
There was a guy on the forum relatively recently that's selling plugs on Reverb.
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I think there's a technical aspect too. I've never had issues with feedback, even when playing carved archtops in loud groups. I guess it's because I have a heavy attack and tend not to turn the amp so loud.
Lowering the amplifier volume means less sound energy gets pumped back into the guitar body, reducing the overall risk of feedback from sustained notes. With a heavy attack, I can generate a broad dynamic range, where softer notes stay quiet and only the loudest strikes have enough energy to potentially cause feedback. This way, I'm playing dynamically without pushing everything into feedback territory.
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I'm glad to see this come up again. Now that I have an archtop again, my answer seems to be to only play it at home. I tried playing out with it once and said never again, But the reality is that only a couple of notes feed back. Shouldn't this be fixable with a parametric EQ or even an acoustic direct box with a notch filter? It's kind of foreign territory for me so don't be shocked if I seem clueless about this.
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I've only found feedback to be a problem when I'm close to the amp and facing it, e.g., when adjusting a knob on the amp. In the those situations, I make sure to keep a hand on the strings so they're muted and feedback doesn't have a chance to get going. Also, I prefer to keep my amp on the floor, which helps reduces the risk of feedback forming. Otherwise, I guess I've either been lucky in my gear choices or don't play loud enough to trigger feedback. If it were a problem, I guess I'd go the tape route, but I'd use some sort of masking tape with a weaker adhesive to protect the finish (and live with the ugliness). rather than strong plastic tape.
Last edited by John A.; 08-29-2024 at 01:14 AM.
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For whatever reason I watched the film yessongs on youtube yesterday and I'm sure everyone knows where this is going. Steve howe used a L5 maybe, his es175 and es335 throughout the show. He was also using a fuzz, wah wah, and a volume pedal with a wall of amps behind him probably all cranked near the max. And didn't really have feedback. I thought I read somewhere how he did that. But its beyond me.
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Of course positioning your body between the amp and guitar helps, amp to your left and behind, but if you're playing in loud organ trios like I do even that only helps so much.
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Recently a inquiry popped up here on the forum asking about Jim Mapson guitars. I did respond to the question, he is no longer building, however it got me walking down memory lane. Jim had built a guitar for Mundell Lowe, and he and Jim were experimenting with Soundposts to control feedback. I guess it worked for Mundell to some degree. I did a search and came up with this entry I made regarding the instrument.
So maybe a Soundpost is not a crazy way to control feedback-and easy to reverse if no joy:
It's entirely possible that Mundell did some mods to his Mapson. I remember chatting with Jim regarding Mundell's desire for a soundpost to control feedback. Apparently the two of them went back and forth several times trying to find the perfect soundpost setup, and I recall Jim wrote a very detailed article regarding the process. Mundell would have found the perfect person in Jim; he was a engineer at heart and ran all kinds of tests on the guitar he built for him to find out if the soundpost was interfering with the tone of the instrument. Of course it did! but they reached a compromise where both were happy from my understanding. It was during one of these "tweeking" visits that I was able to play it both acoustically and plugged in. It sounded much better plugged in as I recall.
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We (BW&I) were having a fb problem with her amplified violin. A compressor fixed it. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
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I put the amp to the left of me so my body acts as a buffer between the amp and guitar body. I use my right hand palm to mute the lower strings when playing higher strings. Me personally, I hate bass frequencies in my sound and like a very tight sound so I usually have the bass turned to zero 99.9% of the time. Lowering the bass knob on your amp can help and keep you in good graces with the bass player by staying out of his sonic space. If you want to regain the fatness by keeping the bass knob where you regularly put it, try a thicker pick to compensate.
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I just choose from my guitars. Tele (traditional or semi-hollow) or Strat for loud gigs, ES-175 or GB10 for moderate gigs. Carved archtop for very quiet gigs. Rolling off the bass frequencies on my amp helps.
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I’ve heard of people cutting and gluing mouse pads together to make their own plugs
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Well you can use flip flops if you want something crude but some high density EVO foam will yield a nice looking well functioning plug if properly made. Originally Posted by tomv713
That's what Doug's Plugs were made from.
It's not really rocket science, trace and cut some 1/2" thick foam plugs to fit the holes and glue 1/8" foam on top, shaped like the f holes but slightly larger to prevent them from falling in. Sand the plugs to fit the holes tight enough to hold but not loose enough to fall out.
Voila, Doug's Plugs....
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Some small pedal-sized equalizers are pretty decent for dialing out feedback. Here's one from Carl Martin, that has been around for years, and specifically mentions that functionality in its marketing literature. I've had success using it for archtop guitar as well as upright bass:
Last edited by Hammertone; 08-30-2024 at 03:02 AM.
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A post from a member of this forum years ago (I can't remember his name) suggested that one cut the required length of packing tape and then tape it to his pant leg once or twice before applying it to his guitar. This reduces the stickiness of the tape while keeping it tacky enough to stay put. I have used this idea on my GB-10 since.
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The foam doesn't even have to be cut exactly in the shape of the hole. I've made them using 1/2" x 3/4" rectangular section foam strip glued to a top piece that's a rough approximation of the actual f shape. It's flexible enough to bend into an S that follows the axis of the f hole. The foam is easily pushed into the hole and expands beneath the top in enough places to hold it in. The strip below is air conditioner weatherstripping from Lowe's, which has adequate adhesive on one 3/4" side to hold it to the top piece (which I also make from flip-flops or similar firm material). The foam comes in many sizes, so it's easy to pick one that will easily slip into the hole but expand enough to hold the plug in place. I need to make a fresh pair and will post pics. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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I think you'll find a bunch of people buy something. People love to buy solutions to their problems instead of change how they do things. Use your hands to mute strings and prevent feedback. Originally Posted by nbevan3
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I didn't reply to your previous (similar) comment here but I'm EXTREMELY proficient at muting strings. I mute strings with the left hand and I rest the heel of my right hand - just-north - of the bridge because I like the percussive quality it lends to the tone. My muting technique is such that I often employ a little trick where I strum single notes with the right hand and mute all but 1 note in the left hand, hitting 4-6 strings and only the single note I am not muting comes through. This is similar to what freddie green did and also what funk/R&B guitarists do with left hand muting... Originally Posted by AllanAllen
When playing loud, that does NOT inhibit the feedback. I can have all 6 strings totally muted but if the drummer (or keyboard, monitors, etc) are loud, the sound-waves vibrate the top of the guitar and that induces feedback. The entire top of the guitar essentially becomes a microphone.
Pat Martino didn't casually make the decision to put 5lbs of upholstery cotton into his L5. He certainly knew how to mute strings. So does george benson who uses packing tape.
Feedback is not just from open strings either. Many instruments have sympathetic vibration from resonant frequencies and if you sustain a chord or certain notes, they will feedback. I don't want to mute the strings of a note I'm trying to sustain.
Tape, cotton, plugs all work very well but have varying degrees of effect on the tone of the instrument.Last edited by jzucker; 09-06-2024 at 02:30 PM.
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Minutes before I would have smashed my Godin Multiac Nylon (which was acoustically about as loud as many full bodies) I bought upholstery foam. Well, it was foam sold by an upholstery shop -- I can't identify it beyond that.
I stuffed the body of the guitar to the gills with it.
Acoustically, it became dull and muted. Electrically, it wasn't much different than before. Feedback was absolutely gone.
Guitar was noticeably heavier. This Godin has only a few small circular openings (near the electronics). I had already taped them with no noticeable effect.
I'd try the Doug's Plugs type solution first. Or the one about blowing up ordinary party balloons inside the guitar (anybody tried that?).
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