Oval Hole vs F-Hole Differences

**Bushwackbob** · 11-22-2010, 10:34 PM

Sure they are. He oversees every guitar that leaves his shop. He stands behind his instruments 100%.

**Eddie Lang** · 11-23-2010, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by fws6

just checked rpguitar's youtube clip....

though it is only 4 chords on each of the guitars it illustrates the tonal differences well

so...........how much for the L5 ?

Not an oval hole, but I do have a round hole archtop, a 1934 Gibson L-4. After watching the video, I'd say that the guitar that is the closest in tone is also the closest in years, the 1935 Gibson L-12.

The L-4 has a carved top with maple back and side. It has great volume and projection, bigger bass and fatter trebles than many ƒ-holes. It is a pretty versatile instruments. Great for jazz... great for old time music... The quick warm popping projection of these roundholes is something that few other guitars can match. Right now, it is wearing Thomastik flats .013.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 11-23-2010, 02:50 AM

1934? That guitar looks like it's in great condition.

**JohnW400** · 11-23-2010, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Bushwackbob

Sure they are. He oversees every guitar that leaves his shop. He stands behind his instruments 100%.

Honestly for that type of money I want Bob himself doing the actual work, tapping the top as he sands, feeling the contour of the ebony bridge, ect.

.

I'm sure they are VERY nice guitars. This 16-b though, I'm surprised that they didn't do a mounted p/up with the controls on the pick guard. I would think the extra hole for the set in p/up might sacrifice some acoustic tone.

If I remember correctly two members here worked for the Benedetto factory in Georgia (?)

**oldane** · 11-26-2010, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Honestly for that type of money I want Bob himself doing the actual work, tapping the top as he sands, feeling the contour of the ebony bridge, ect.

.

In the mid 1990s, before his prices rose to the sky, I had Bob make a Fratello for me in his Stroudsburg workshop. Even then he had assistents, wanting to learn the art of archtop making, and it is likely that my instrument was partly made by one of them (considering the time, it might have been Dale Unger).

The Benedettos are very nice guitars, and the new ones from his present small scale factory are not necessarily inferior to the instruments he made himself in his workshop back then.

That said, you also pay a lot for the Benedetto name. Besides being a very talented luthier, Bob is also a clever businessman, who knows very well that he partly sells guitars, partly sells dreams - and he charges for the dreams too. As he says in his book: The right price is the price the market will bear. There are luthiers who offer instruments of comparable quality and workmanship for a lot less. Two names that readily comes to mind are Jim Triggs (now with his son Ryan) and Mark Campellone - both luthiers who seem to have deliberately chosen not to let their prices grow to astronomical heights.

**JohnW400** · 11-26-2010, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by oldane

That said, you also pay a lot for the Benedetto name. Besides being a very talented luthier, Bob is also a clever businessman, who knows very well that he partly sells guitars, partly sells dreams - and he charges for the dreams too. As he says in his book: The right price is the price the market will bear. There are luthiers who offer instruments of comparable quality and workmanship for a lot less. Two names that readily comes to mind are Jim Triggs (now with his son Ryan) and Mark Campellone - both luthiers who seem to have deliberately chosen not to let their prices grow to astronomical heights.

Yes, I have the oval hole that apears in Mark Campellones gallery on page 2. Best guitar I ever bought

**horel** · 11-29-2010, 01:51 PM

I am one of at least two members who used to work for Bob Benedetto in his workshop in Savannah, GA W.W.Wilkie in, Canada now, is the other.I am currently building a Florentine cut-away(pointed) Hand-carved archtop guitar which could be built as an oval or F-hole guitar.I also have 3 mandolins finished 2 for sale. If any one is interested let me know.
James T. Horel
Daisy ,GA

**spiral** · 11-29-2010, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

It can't be totally generalized of course, but the basic flavor of an oval hole is to have somewhat wider dynamic range in terms of frequency response. There are a bit more highs and lows, and the midrange can be a bit less prevalent. They do sound a bit more like a flattop guitar, and can be coaxed a bit more readily into playing "strummy" stuff.

I agree with this analysis. I found it to have a little more on the bass end, and it was a little more "hi-fi" (not good or bad) i guess because of the wider range of frequencies. I played one with and without a side port--can't remember the brands, it was in NJ--but they had a similar flavor (which rpguitarnailed): pretty much a blend of an archtop and dreadnaught.

**spiral** · 12-01-2010, 08:55 PM

Just found this and thought of your thread:

**JohnW400** · 12-01-2010, 11:21 PM

'm getting some G.A.S.now. Nice guitar.

**spiral** · 12-20-2010, 05:06 PM

Just ran across this. I have no connection with the seller, but part of me wants to change that.

Andersen 16" Oval Hole Archtop FOR SALE - The Acoustic Guitar Forum

**hot ford coupe** · 12-20-2010, 11:50 PM

I'm not all that crazy about the big holes in the center of the top. It's easier to lose my pick in the big hole than F holes.

**fumblefingers** · 12-21-2010, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

In the mid 1990s, before his prices rose to the sky, I had Bob make a Fratello for me in his Stroudsburg workshop. Even then he had assistents, wanting to learn the art of archtop making, and it is likely that my instrument was partly made by one of them (considering the time, it might have been Dale Unger).

The Benedettos are very nice guitars, and the new ones from his present small scale factory are not necessarily inferior to the instruments he made himself in his workshop back then.

That said, you also pay a lot for the Benedetto name. Besides being a very talented luthier, Bob is also a clever businessman, who knows very well that he partly sells guitars, partly sells dreams - and he charges for the dreams too. As he says in his book: The right price is the price the market will bear. There are luthiers who offer instruments of comparable quality and workmanship for a lot less. Two names that readily comes to mind are Jim Triggs (now with his son Ryan) and Mark Campellone - both luthiers who seem to have deliberately chosen not to let their prices grow to astronomical heights.

deliberately chosen? are you kidding?

so you believe that they have sufficiently strong market demand to support dramatic raising of their prices but are saying - "nah, I don't need the money, i do it for love".

one may have noticed that Benedetto guitars is being a little more flexible with their prices as of late. its a tough market for custom guitars right now.

Benedetto was right. Both he and his competitors are getting the prices that the market will bear...

**JohnW400** · 12-21-2010, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

deliberately chosen? are you kidding?

so you believe that they have sufficiently strong market demand to support dramatic raising of their prices but are saying - "nah, I don't need the money, i do it for love".

If you're refering to Mark Campellone, he intentionally keeps his prices more competitive. He has stated so in interviews. He could easily get more. The quote I read was that he makes X number of guitars a year and sells every one of them. I'm sure Triggs has a similar philosophy. These two builders are always busy.

I went to a guitar show in Long Island and all the luthiers had a bunch of guitars on display. Except Mark. He only had 3. He told me everything he had was sold and he had to borrow these three from friends in order to have anything to display.

I own one and I have sung it's praises in this forum on many occasions.

Most of the other guys like Comins, Buscarino et al make wonderful guitars. I'd love to own one of those new Comins that Vic Juris plays (but single , mouted pup) But dollar for dollar, feature for feature you can't beat Marks guitars.

**oldane** · 12-21-2010, 03:32 PM

so you believe that they have sufficiently strong market demand to support dramatic raising of their prices but are saying - "nah, I don't need the money, i do it for love

Well, it must be some kind of love. When I inquired about a Stromberg Master 400 copy from Jim Triggs early this year, I was pleasantly surpriced by the price he quoted. And as the exchange rate was favorable for me (I live in Europe), I didn't hesitate to order. In addition he made several small refinements to the guitar, which was above the specs we agreed upon, and in fact I got more than I opted for. So yes, I think it can be a matter of love of the craft.

One thing Jim Triggs doesn't spend much on is advertising. He does have a web site, but that's it. The photos on the web site are shot by himself or Ryan (his son who works with him) in the sun outside his workshop, not by an expensive photographer in a studio. These years he mainly builds mandolins for the bluegrass community. Being a bluegrass mandolin player himself, he heads a bluegrass festival in K.C., so I figure he doesn't need those expensive ads but makes contacts with the musicians at festivals and is well known in those circles.

**horel** · 12-21-2010, 04:15 PM

Try carving a piece of curly maple into a 17" guitar back and you'll soon find out it has to be more obsession than anything else. The amount of shear manual labor involved is hard to convey. If your lucky enough to have a CNC or a carving machine(I don't). It cuts down on the grunt work but that's more overhead expense which has to be passed on to the customer. One problem all american products face is the artificial manipulation of the currency exchange rate by the Chinese government (undervaluing there currency)also their use of political prisoners a slave labor. Consumers are left with unreasonable expectations for pricing. When I sell the guitar I'm building I'll be doing good to get minimum wage for my labor. Love, obsession ? I'm not sure I know the difference any more. It could still be an Oval-hole if anyone is still interested.

**fumblefingers** · 12-21-2010, 11:48 PM

Of course. I’m quite sure that the luthiers really love what they do.

I am also confident that they charge what they can.

Maybe a few of them could boost their prices a little. But then, they would risk more competition that way. Maybe they feel safer where they are. It’s a business decision. If one charged $8K for a guitar they could easily charge $16K for - without suffering negative market consequences in the short or long run - they would be a pretty bad businessman.

**Wjguitar** · 02-12-2011, 06:28 PM

Hi...I've owned many arched top guitars from D'Angelicos to Strombergs to Benedettos, Gibsons, NY Epi's, Koontz and more.

My Koontz guitar is an "Oval F" model which features both an oval hole and an f hole on the bass side. There is a sliding plate in a track that permits closing the oval hole. Pretty cool feature if feedback were to become a problem. I like the tone with the hole open. The guitar sustains like a Les Paul and has wonderful archtop jazz guitar tone, too.

I happen to prefer parallel bracing to x bracing and oval holes to f holes. One item that wasn't mentioned is that although the Howard Roberts models are the same size as an ES-175 (16" guitars), the HR has a scale length of a shy bit more than 25" (about 25 1/8" I believe)...the ES-175 has a 24 3/4" scale like a Les Paul. The L-5's and Super 400's have 25 1/2" scale lengths...so, apart from the body sizes and whether they have oval or f holes, the scale lengths are also different in some cases.

I absolutely love my Koontz Oval-F. Best sounding guitar I've ever had. I also love the HR model with oval hole. In all my comparisons, I would choose an oval hole over f. I also enjoy the acoustic sound of a ported rim. There's different schools of thought on this too. I think it opens up the guitar more acoustically. If you're into fingerstyle playing but not into flattops I would recommend an Oval hole model (or one of each) would make it sound great, look great and unique.

I'm having my HR model worked on now, by Keith Vizcarra. In the oval hole opening will be a bakelite plate with a gold plated Lipstick Pickup mounted to it. I'm going to have an RMC pickup installed in the bridge (preamp in rim) and P-92 (P-90 Humbuckers) installed for the front and back pickups. It will also drive a Roland GR-55 synth. I'm having Keith install a sustain block inside the guitar under the bridge between the top and back and an f hole installed on the bass side. The tones will be vast, the sustain like a 335 semi hollowbody, and for electric playing, minimal feedback. Just a fun project.

Based on your initial comments about playing fingetstyle guitar, I think over the years you'll prefer the oval hole to the f hole. If you're a player first, investor or collector second..go for the oval hole, or have your luthier of choice build the guitar with one of each.

I studied with Vic Cenicola for a long time. Yes, he has a Koontz 18" F hole Natural model. Vic always preferred 18" guitars and had a pair of Super 400's too...one sunburst and one natural.

If you get your luthier to build one with both an oval hole and f hole, you might get him to experiment with "trap doors" like Sam Koontz did. I can't close off the f hole on my oval f...only the oval hole, but Sam did build some for others that had a hinged w/ tine assembly under the f hole for closing if necessary. Vic Cenicola used to stuff his bass side f holes with foam to eliminate feedback. Resolves that problem, but, acoustically it dampens an otherwise beautiful sounding acoustic guitar.

Here's a video I trust you'll all enjoy if you haven't seen it. I produced it along with my friend Thom Bresh (Son of Merle Travis). It features several of my archtops all recorded acoustically and it is a rough mix...no mics and no mastering at this point. I think you'll all agree the Koontz sounds incredible.

Respectfully submitted...Wayne Wesley Johnson

**Wjguitar** · 02-12-2011, 06:29 PM

Hi...I've owned many arched top guitars from D'Angelicos to Strombergs to Benedettos, Gibsons, NY Epi's, Koontz and more.

My Koontz guitar is an "Oval F" model which features both an oval hole and an f hole on the bass side. There is a sliding plate in a track that permits closing the oval hole. Pretty cool feature if feedback were to become a problem. I like the tone with the hole open. The guitar sustains like a Les Paul and has wonderful archtop jazz guitar tone, too.

I happen to prefer parallel bracing to x bracing and oval holes to f holes. One item that wasn't mentioned is that although the Howard Roberts models are the same size as an ES-175 (16" guitars), the HR has a scale length of a shy bit more than 25" (about 25 1/8" I believe)...the ES-175 has a 24 3/4" scale like a Les Paul. The L-5's and Super 400's have 25 1/2" scale lengths...so, apart from the body sizes and whether they have oval or f holes, the scale lengths are also different in some cases.

I absolutely love my Koontz Oval-F. Best sounding guitar I've ever had. I also love the HR model with oval hole. In all my comparisons, I would choose an oval hole over f. I also enjoy the acoustic sound of a ported rim. There's different schools of thought on this too. I think it opens up the guitar more acoustically. If you're into fingerstyle playing but not into flattops I would recommend an Oval hole model (or one of each) would make it sound great, look great and unique.

I'm having my HR model worked on now, by Keith Vizcarra. In the oval hole opening will be a bakelite plate with a gold plated Lipstick Pickup mounted to it. I'm going to have an RMC pickup installed in the bridge (preamp in rim) and P-92 (P-90 Humbuckers) installed for the front and back pickups. It will also drive a Roland GR-55 synth. I'm having Keith install a sustain block inside the guitar under the bridge between the top and back and an f hole installed on the bass side. The tones will be vast, the sustain like a 335 semi hollowbody, and for electric playing, minimal feedback. Just a fun project.

Based on your initial comments about playing fingetstyle guitar, I think over the years you'll prefer the oval hole to the f hole. If you're a player first, investor or collector second..go for the oval hole, or have your luthier of choice build the guitar with one of each.

I studied with Vic Cenicola for a long time. Yes, he has a Koontz 18" F hole Natural model. Vic always preferred 18" guitars and had a pair of Super 400's too...one sunburst and one natural.

If you get your luthier to build one with both an oval hole and f hole, you might get him to experiment with "trap doors" like Sam Koontz did. I can't close off the f hole on my oval f...only the oval hole, but Sam did build some for others that had a hinged w/ tine assembly under the f hole for closing if necessary. Vic Cenicola used to stuff his bass side f holes with foam to eliminate feedback. Resolves that problem, but, acoustically it dampens an otherwise beautiful sounding acoustic guitar.

Here's a video I trust you'll all enjoy if you haven't seen it. I produced it along with my friend Thom Bresh (Son of Merle Travis). It features several of my archtops all recorded acoustically and it is a rough mix...no mics and no mastering at this point. I think you'll all agree the Koontz sounds incredible.

Respectfully submitted...Wayne Wesley Johnson

**vishalpd15** · 04-18-2012, 03:21 AM

i was buy a guitar... f hole guitar ....
i m a beginner ... i don't know anything about guitar...
tell me f hole guitar better for me..... to start learning...
plz rply me fast

**gardano** · 04-18-2012, 10:57 AM

The f-hole vs the oval hole is really not important to start out. The blog was started to explore the changes in sound quality, not that one is particularly better than the other for a beginner.
If you want to start learning jazz guitar I would suggest gettting an f-hole as in the future, if you want to continue, you might want to upgrade to a better instrument and f-hole guitars sell better than oval hole. The oval hole is used mainly for Django-style jazz, although you could play anything in those.
I don't know your budget but Heritage puts out quality jazz guitars at reasonable prices.
Hope this helps!

**coolvinny** · 04-18-2012, 01:14 PM

An oval-hole will be a little more flattop-ish than a f-hole guitar (more sustain). But there are so many variables...strings, picks, rim depth, your fingers, etc, that it really doesn't matter much on its own.

Also, it can be trickier to fit a magnetic pick-up to an oval-hole.

**Kenneth** · 04-18-2012, 01:26 PM

Aesthetically, the f-hole looks archaic to me. (my taste only).

Nuff Said · 04-19-2012, 09:51 AM

I'd like one of these Ribbecke halfling guitars.
Nuff

Welcome to Ribbecke Guitars

**coolvinny** · 04-19-2012, 12:00 PM

Remember that the Ribbecke Halfling is very different than a traditional archtop - it's not just the oval hole vs. f hole thing. Nor is it just the oval hole's placement. The Halfling is built sort of half as an archtop and half as a flattop...a far cry from a Howard Roberts etc.