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I've attached pics from a 2011 L-4 CES. I can't actually feel the crack but see it, where the pickup joins the wood. Just trying to verify here with ideas on what might have happened to this enroute from CO to FL--dry to humid? I did not make out the same grain lines with the seller's original pictures. I had first assumed that was a top seam point, but not so much now. Thanks again for any insight. It heads back to CO on Monday, I think, maybe????
Last edited by tomvwash; 07-27-2024 at 12:21 PM.
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07-27-2024 11:45 AM
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A wood crack is a wood crack when there's a split in the wood. It might or might not go all the way through to the other side.
A finish crack/check is a crack in the finish.
I can't tell what that is though it looks minor. Is it @ the center seam of the spruce?
What did Luther say?
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yes, it's the center seam--thanks for asking. Luthier verified damage, but as you say, not major, and the similar line runs all the way down the tailpiece. I have other natural carved tops, nothing that resembles this.
Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Did you ask the seller if he would pay for the repair?If i really liked the guitar i'd do that first instead of sending it back.
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I'd cleat it ASAP. Changes in seasonal change can result in real issues that are more difficult to address. A good cleat job and lacquer amalgamation could be all you need to have a stable invisible repair and no further worries there for the life of that guitar.
Good rule of thumb: Have any cracks or splits, seam separations or shifts taken care of IMMEDIATELY after being detected. And have them done with as much expertise available. Better not to wait or have a bad tech do it. Your guitar will than and reward you.
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I'm confused. Is this the same guitar featured in Buyer Process For PP F&F Damage Claim? I assumed you were returning it. Was I mistaken?
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Yes, this is the same guitar. If the seller and I can agree on a partial refund, maybe it stays here. From the above note on a cleat job, though, Im not sure my luthier can do this, but can ask. There's damage, no question, but whether major or minor, and can it grow worse, I don't have the experience with this sort of thing. Originally Posted by jazzshrink
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Does this mean you no longer believe it was "damaged" in transit but instead, something that the seller failed to see/disclose? Originally Posted by tomvwash
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No, I trust the seller, entirely. We're both certain that this occurred en route. He has filed a claim with Fed Ex already. Originally Posted by jazzshrink
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Got it. Good luck! Originally Posted by tomvwash
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Looks like a crack as jimmy Blue says and it needs a cleat a very simple repair for a competent luthier. I doubt that anything is serious the only issue in the whole process is how much does it devalue the guitar and what is it now worth. Right now, it devalues it for sure but maybe not in 40 years.
Since it is built in electric, I personally would use a bit more wood for cleat than an acoustic, it will not change the sound one bit. Might be able to hind the split is it happens to pull up even though you did not feel a crack.
So my 1938 L5 has 2 small repaired top cracks from many ages ago. It certainly devalues the guitar compared to an equivalent with no cracks. However, most buying guitars like this understand and realize nothing major going on. In fact since my sound so great and powerful guitar is might be preferred over the crackless.
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I wouldn't be in a big rush to cleat that, if mine I'd pop that pickup out and see what's going on first, it might not even be a crack in the wood.
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Bob Peterson in PSL has done bunches, including two for me, and I’m sure many for Jay Wolfe and The Guitar Broker in Ft. Lauderdale. It’s a simple repair. Originally Posted by tomvwash
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I recently got another Heritage Johnny Smith (#4). The owner I knew had it for years. I even played it then. It eventually was in a music store with pretty competent people. A friend who is both a player and a luthier saw it in the store and played it. He recommended it to me. The store owner gave me a price but cautioned me there were a few dings. He wouldn't agree to sell it to me until I saw these. He sent quite a few detailed pics. They were trivial for an old guitar. So I got it. It sounds and plays extremely well.
About a week later I decided to check the bracing. I felt something then saw a small cleat. I looked carefully at the top and saw a tiny line that was easily confused with grain.
I contacted the store owner and sent him the pics. I believe him when he said he was not aware of it and neither was the previous owner. I definitely missed it having played it for a week. The store owner offered a 10% refund, which was generous but understandable.
It is not surprising that played instruments that get gigged and are subjected to seasonal humidity and temperature shifts will develop issues such as this.
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Now I hear the voice of experience and authority. Well said and humbly acknowledged Marty. You know well how tricky a solid centre join is, especially when you realize that is the join of two wedges carved down to a 2mm seam! Originally Posted by Marty Grass
These things happen, and I've repaired many. Invisible when finished. Undetectable when seen OR PLAYED. But trouble trouble trouble when left unattended. These things grow like wildfire.
+1 for Marty's post.
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So, you are advising cleating from as low to the tailpiece as possible, up to the pickups, and also taking the pickups out to check for other damage? What does this entail, 4-5 cleats in all? Again, no experience here, but my luthier is ready and capable. Still not sure as of this morning whether this guitar is staying or headed back to CO. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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I cleat in the centre of any split 2" or longer. I also am mindful to keep anything like a split or end check eminating from an F hole, wood check, soundhole or F hole (where end grain was exposed to the air at one point) and I'll cleat with a cross grain diamond cleat at the end of a split. Cleats do not effect the sound in any detectable way (IMHO) and properly placed will prevent future issues from appearing. Originally Posted by tomvwash
Modern neodynium magnets have allowed me to cleat inside with extremely efficient placement and pressure.
Of course I don't have your guitar in my hands and my ultimate advice is always for minimal unnecessary repairs, so have a good luthier weigh in on this. I'm basing my notes on the photos you provided and my fears of what it ultimately means. Pickup routing cuts into the integrity of the top at that point, humbucker asserts a weight that adds to downward pressure there, any glue line will be tested, any detected compromises can be well compensated for at that point. I don't think it's a bad idea to enforce a carved spruce top where a humbucker is located. But that's just me.
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Has anyone determined that this is an actual wood split or are we talking about cleating a finish check?
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The seller and I agreed on a partial refund just a few minutes ago-total integrity on his end, and the guitar is staying with me-and I am taking it to my luthier tomorrow, who will address any issues by first removing the pickup to determine damage and then cleating, which now appears necessary, given the comments here. But the luthier can decide on this. Thanks again for the invaluable insight on this thread, as always! Originally Posted by wintermoon
Tom
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For the benefit of guitar tech ignoramuses like me, what is "cleating." I presume the term is related to the dictionary definition.
Cleat:
(a) A wedge-shaped block fastened to a surface to serve as a check or support:
(b) A strip of wood, metal, etc., fastened across a surface, as of a plank or series of adjacent planks, for strength or support.
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All you want to know and more: Making and Installing Cleats – Triangle Strings Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Great and pivotal question. I, for one, have never seen a finish line nor craze line follow a grain line and split with the underlying wood fully intact and unbroken. It may be flexing along a seam line that hasn't come completely separated, but a finish breach indicates something amiss. Originally Posted by wintermoon
Millions of guitars have integral tops and continuous lacquer surfaces. What causes a finish split along the place where two pieces of glued wood meet? It's a cause for further investigation if nothing else. Why wouldn't the owner look into the possibilities to get a clean bill of health?
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Thank you, doesn't look as simple as someone suggested. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
In the materials list, it says, "Hide glue" Why, is it contraband?
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It's not a crack if it's along the seam? I've had humidity damage cause this on flat tops including a nice Kinscherff. Had the builder do the repair and he actually removed some material along the seam and inserted a thin strip of wood. Then refinished (nitro, not poly). Couldn't do this very easily with an archtop. Do cleats work on seam separations?
Guitar did have a crack in another place and that was stabilized with cleats.
Guitar's sound (stellar) remained the same before and after repairs.
As for hurrying with repairs.. in many places a crack has no place to go and doesn't impact sound. Problem is, dirt can get into the crack and you will never get it out.
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Good opportunity for a string change. Originally Posted by tomvwash
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