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Yeah, I thought I answered but, for the sake of brevity:
It doesn't matter what note set if you don't listen to how they're actually used by the folks who created the music.
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01-29-2024 01:15 PM
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A hint to what to listen for:
Listen to how many blues melodies rise first from the tonic and then fall back.
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Restating the question is a polite way of suggesting that people read the OP and attempt to answer it.
Originally Posted by ragman1
Ideally, I should be born a poor black man in the Jim Crow South, whose baby has left him, translating my mama's field hollers directly to the guitar.
Regardless, I am not interested in whether people who suggest learning scales are "wrong". But you can start a thread about that, if you like.
The approaches I am evaluating are recommended by some fine players and teachers. I am asking whether anyone has a preference for one over the other.
If you don't,...Last edited by Krinky; 01-29-2024 at 02:46 PM.
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Still going :-)
I know what you said, of course. It asked which scale was best, the major and minor or the composite one.
I'm saying, and others are saying too, that 'scales' aren't the way to go. Not in that sense anyway. And, trust me, they're not. Actually, a moment's practice would show you whether the composite had any great advantage over the two separately.
In fact, what I did in the video was to combine the major and minor over one chord to show that they needn't be used separately.
Reg also chipped in and said approaching the blues the 'scale' way left people struggling forever and still not getting it. And he's been playing a very long time and blue notes are his speciality.
Your next post said this:
Why do you think so many people favor the chordal approach? Through ignorance or experience?I know in Jazz y'all tend to favor a chordal approach.
Also:
They are, but it depends how you use them. I was using them but doing it in a way that utilised the available notes in a constructive, effective and authentic way. If I may point out, you couldn't do that with a composite scale which is merely a theoretical concept.Nonetheless, the scales I reference appear to be the default entry into the Blues.
So then:
Asked and answered, yes? But not understood obviously. Not our fault.My question really just comes down to whether students learn more efficiently with one nine-note note collection or two six-note note collections.
Look, may I be direct? You've got a bee in your bonnet about this. You want to be quite safe and sure so you've selected a certain way which you think is right and you're going to stick to it like glue, repeating and repeating the same conclusion.
But all conclusions are the wrong conclusion. The best way is the way that works and that's not a conclusion, that's the outcome of trying it all out. So it's not really up to us, it's entirely up to you.
By the way, there's no system. When you practice a system you're tied to it. Try everything out and take what works for you out of all that. Then you'll be playing your own music free of rigid ideas.
Who cares what other peoples' preferences are? What suits them may not suit you at all. TRY THEM and then you'll find out, won't you?The approaches I am evaluating are recommended by some fine players and teachers. I am asking whether anyone has a preference for one over the other.
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For what it’s worth, I think I did answer it? I don’t think working on scales is wrong. I think the framework you’ve suggested for those scales is not great in this specific context. Originally Posted by Krinky
Speaking of which … do you have some source material for that approach? One of these fine teachers? Some solo transcriptions?
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No, I don't have a preference for a blues scale. Meanwhile I am beyond that. Originally Posted by Krinky
I am from a white educated European middle-class family, mean-while I am probably considered by some a white old (51) man, but have been listening to and studied African-American blues for 35 years, from very folkloristic rural forms over electric urban blues to sophisticated jazz blues. And when I go to jazz jam sessions the kids from the music schools or Munich's conservatory tell me I am sounding very bluesy.
Do as you please.
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Also just for the record if we could refrain from kind of weird caricatures of black blues musicians, that would be greatly appreciated.
k thx
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That's right. It's not that a certain set of notes is wrong, it's about how they're used. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Did your baby done leave you, though? Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Which would you use, if you had to choose? Originally Posted by ragman1
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Can you find even one blues improvisation method that does not reference one or the other? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I'd go with the whole set, though I might not introduce them all at the same time. Like for me, the minor pentatonic with the added M3/caveat about how that 3rd is treated would come first. Then the flat fifth, and again, how it's handled...The 6th and 9th could be added on later.
I'd be hesitant to explain to a beginner two different note sets, one for the I and a different for the IV and V, because they might take that as "law." And very often in a blues, you may hear exactly the same phrase over the I chord as you would over the IV, so actually I think it's very important to hear how the same note set sounds over those 2 different chords.
As far as the listening goes there's thousands of recordings to help with that. Just because a person wasn't there when the music was being created doesn't mean they have to miss out on the listening part.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 01-29-2024 at 04:57 PM.
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No, she just called me on the phone. Originally Posted by Krinky
And a little preoccupation with black music would show very soon that not all blues is sad.
Sometimes I have the feeling that the baby that has left might also be a code for a society refusing someone because of the color of skin.
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I understand that you think listening is important. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I added on as well. Originally Posted by Krinky
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Well that’s not the original post. You said specifically one of them for the one chord and the other for the four and five. The question wasn’t about whether or not either of those patterns was evident in any blues solo ever. But rather—given that framework of one on the I and the other on the IV and V—should they be taught separately or as one larger scale. I said I didn’t really agree with that framing at all—specifically because I don’t really see a lot of blues solos that use them in that way. Originally Posted by Krinky
And for that reason said I usually use them as a single scale with different notes used in different contexts for different purposes. Not as a thing that is chord-change dependent.
Speaking of reading the OP more carefully?
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Indeed, many were playing jigs and polkas, but that is not what the field recorders chose to release. Originally Posted by Bop Head
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All of them and a lot more besides. I tend not to choose either, at least not in the conscious sense; it just happens from accumulated experience. Originally Posted by Krinky
But first try what I said in the video, the dominant, minor, pentatonic and alt scale. That's plenty. The point about using chord shapes as a focal basis is that all the right notes are directly under your fingers. Then you play with them. That's the creative fun bit.
After that try different keys and different rhythms. After that maybe use some diminished sounds. After that some chord subs like the tritones... and so it goes on.
But start simple. Always start simple. It works.
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So, in answer to my question, you use the Composite Blues Scale. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
See, that wasn't hard!
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I bet you he never started that way. If you're used to using the dom and min, etc, in one solo, the notes kind of coalesce and feel like a single phenomenon you can draw on as you want. Originally Posted by Krinky
Open to correction, of course :-)
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Nah. To answer your question, I dispute the premise of the question. Originally Posted by Krinky
person 1: is a calzone or a margherita pizza the best pizza?
person 2: that’s an odd question.
person 1: no it’s not.
person 2: a calzone isn’t a pizza. But for what it’s worth I like margherita pizza quite a lot.
person 1: so to answer my question, you think margherita pizza is the best pizza.
person 2: …………
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So again … I don’t really teach those notes “as a scale.”
I take kids noodling over a minor pentatonic and give them additional notes that do specific things.
That is very very very different than major scale bootcamp. They don’t really function as a scale and the specific underlying chord isn’t all that important beyond its ability to indicate a part of the form.
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I'm amazed that you're in the least doubt about the importance of that. How else can you possibly get the feel of the music? Originally Posted by Krinky
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That is what I aim to do. Originally Posted by ragman1
But doesn't everyone start out with 1, 2, ? 3, 3, 4, ? 5, 5, 6, b7? as either one or two scales?
Even if you start with just 1, 2, ? 3, 3, 5, 6 and add in 4, ? 5, ? 7. later, you are still working with either Major and Minor Blues or Composite Blues.
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Krinky -
I think you think too much and do too little. Stop wondering about it, playing with options, comparing what other people do, and get on it with doing it. Start... and make mistakes like we all did. You'll soon find out.
And when you've found out come and show us what you can do. We won't laugh. Well, I might, but the others won't :-)
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