Constraint Led Learning

[Krinky]

The idea of constraint led learning is that, given the correct restraints, the correct solutions for a given problem will naturally emerge.

Here is a description of how it is used in sports.

The constraints-led approach has been proposed as a framework for describing and informing skill acquisition. The approach originated in the work of Newell who proposed that the co-adaptive interactions of three categories of constraints, namely task, environment and individual, enables learners to self-organise in attempts to generate effective movement solutions. Task constraints include such factors as the rules of the game, the equipment used, the current state of a game or specific rules, markings and boundaries, including the design and scaling of equipment along with instructions and feedback. Whilst a primary outcome when designing learning environments in sport is to ensure effective skill learning, a key concern is the psychological impact of what practitioners ask learners to do. Proponents of a constraints-led approach highlight the importance of individual-environment mutuality and propose that skill learning is framed around an enhanced fit between the individual and environment.

One example of this approach to guitar is in the book "The Advancing Guitarist" by Mic Goodrick. His approach to learning to play on one string is: choose a string, choose a key a key and mode to play over, play.

To some extent, all players who learned by ear are constraint led. They have an instrument and goal and figure out how to attain that goal.

But usually, constraint led learning breaks things into smaller pieces.

So, my question is whether you, or anyone you know, has used this approach to learn to play both vertically and horizontally by doing something like what Mic suggests, instead of using scale patterns.

[AlexOT]

I know one very experienced guitar player and teacher, who told me that whatever method I choose they all lead to knowing the notes on the fretboard. And until I know all the notes on the fretboard the method I choose is not that relevant. I learned that there are only two stages, before and after proper fretboard knowledge.

This applies to my personal journey with this beautiful complex instrument

[pauln]

I know one very experienced guitar player and teacher, who told me that whatever method I choose they all lead to knowing the notes on the fretboard. And until I know all the notes on the fretboard the method I choose is not that relevant. I learned that there are only two stages, before and after proper fretboard knowledge.

This applies to my personal journey with this beautiful complex instrument

A note name is a location on a line or space in the staff, which in conjuntion with the key signature and additional accidentals applied in the measures represents multiple pitches.

The guitar sounds pitches whose note names enharmonically take multiple assignments depending on the context. One context is the key of the song wherein the assignmnet of note names to pitches would follow the key signature with possible accidentals applied. Another context is when thinking of intervals, for example accompaniment chords, wherein one might like to name enharmonically maintaining the concept of stacked thirds, (or for emphasising chord tones on strong beats when soloing).

If proper fret board knowledge were knowing all the notes on the fretboard up to say, the 12th fret: does that mean knowing 234 "note letter plus accidental if present" names for 78 fret board locations comprising 37 distinct pitches? Does it mean that "the notes" names may be enharmonically changed back and forth while perforing to better serve whether one is accompanying or soloing?

[pauln]

The idea of constraint led learning is that, given the correct restraints, the correct solutions for a given problem will naturally emerge.

Here is a description of how it is used in sports.

The constraints-led approach has been proposed as a framework for describing and informing skill acquisition. The approach originated in the work of Newell who proposed that the co-adaptive interactions of three categories of constraints, namely task, environment and individual, enables learners to self-organise in attempts to generate effective movement solutions. Task constraints include such factors as the rules of the game, the equipment used, the current state of a game or specific rules, markings and boundaries, including the design and scaling of equipment along with instructions and feedback. Whilst a primary outcome when designing learning environments in sport is to ensure effective skill learning, a key concern is the psychological impact of what practitioners ask learners to do. Proponents of a constraints-led approach highlight the importance of individual-environment mutuality and propose that skill learning is framed around an enhanced fit between the individual and environment.

One example of this approach to guitar is in the book "The Advancing Guitarist" by Mic Goodrick. His approach to learning to play on one string is: choose a string, choose a key a key and mode to play over, play.

To some extent, all players who learned by ear are constraint led. They have an instrument and goal and figure out how to attain that goal.

But usually, constraint led learning breaks things into smaller pieces.

So, my question is whether you, or anyone you know, has used this approach to learn to play both vertically and horizontally by doing something like what Mic suggests, instead of using scale patterns.

When I started teaching myself the guitar I did use two primary constraints from the beginning.
One was for the left hand - use all four fingers all the time, all styles, all tempos, all places on the neck, no exceptions. Other was for the right hand - do whatever is needed to satisfy the left hand's fingering.

The result has been that the number of possible fingering solutions is reduced and the right hand has figured out on its own how to do what is needed.

[pamosmusic]

I’m not sure about all the jargon in this thread, but I practice this way all the time. Like I don’t practice any other way.

If I’m voiceleading through a tune or something, I might stay in one position (a constraint) or one set of strings (a constraint) or one set of strings in a particular position (a constraint). I might use only half notes (a constraint), or a particular rhythm (a constraint), or a particular shape (a constraint), or a particular sound over a particular chord (a constraint)

Basically all of my practicing is layering on different constraints depending on what I want to be working on.

So yesterday I found myself playing the changes to I Could Write a Book, on the highest three strings of seventh or eighth position, using mostly half notes, only notes from seventh chord arpeggios, and playing a m7(b5) over all the dominants.

Some of those things I switch a lot (where and on what strings I’m playing on) and some of those things I live with for a while (using the m7b5 over all the dominants all this week).

[Reg]

Yea... somewhat a silly approach for music, there are just too many wrong roads and not enough time.

[pamosmusic]

Yea... somewhat a silly approach for music, there are just too many wrong roads and not enough time.

Care to be more specific, sensei?

[Bop Head]

Care to be more specific, sensei?

Not enough time to explain things in a way everybody could understand.

Not enough time to read a post properly that says "effective solutions" somewhere.

[Jimmy blue note]

Yea... somewhat a silly approach for music, there are just too many wrong roads and not enough time.

My entire toolset for improvisation is comprised of silly approaches, each one of them breaks me out of the prosaic and expected and opens up something personal by which I can own my music.
It takes different amounts of time to turn that block of clay into something that can be formed into real time improvisational aesthetic material, but it really is the key to the diversity of my own soloing.
I once expressed my anxiety about going down a wrong road, about wasting my time, and the teacher I shared this with told me "Don't be afraid to flounder. If it resonates with you, immerse yourself in it. When something else comes along that you love, embrace it until it's a useful part of you. It'll take time but when it comes together, what's left is you."
This is what Mick Goodrick told me when I first arrived in Boston. It was the beginning of a long collaboration and friendship. In the end this attitude included an obsession and enthusiasm for art, watercolour, free improvisation, all of which added new parameters and avenues for artistic liberation.
Well, it worked out for me anyway.

[Christian Miller]

Heaven forbid music and music learning should be fun and creative

[pamosmusic]

My entire toolset for improvisation is comprised of silly approaches, each one of them breaks me out of the prosaic and expected and opens up something personal by which I can own my music.
It takes different amounts of time to turn that block of clay into something that can be formed into real time improvisational aesthetic material, but it really is the key to the diversity of my own soloing.
I once expressed my anxiety about going down a wrong road, about wasting my time, and the teacher I shared this with told me "Don't be afraid to flounder. If it resonates with you, immerse yourself in it. When something else comes along that you love, embrace it until it's a useful part of you. It'll take time but when it comes together, what's left is you."
This is what Mick Goodrick told me when I first arrived in Boston. It was the beginning of a long collaboration and friendship. In the end this attitude included an obsession and enthusiasm for art, watercolour, free improvisation, all of which added new parameters and avenues for artistic liberation.
Well, it worked out for me anyway.

This is a really nice story.

and back to this other post …

there are just too many wrong roads and not enough time.

This is also the sort of thing that was fed to me in music school, and it took me many years, one pretty serious bout of carpal tunnel, and a three year hiatus from burnout to realize that they’re generally wrong on both counts.

Life is somewhat longer than the time between now and the next jury, or the next gig, or the next deadline. There is always enough time to do interesting things, follow cool tangents, get some things wrong, and take the occasional necessary break.

There are also too many right roads to get hung up worrying about taking the wrong one.

[pamosmusic]

I think generally the issue is not that people don’t know what to focus on, but rather that people don’t know what focus is.

I usually think long time horizons are a big part of focus and getting hung up on the lack of time you have is a quick way to intimidate yourself out of spending six months on something that seems interesting or potentially fruitful

[Jimmy blue note]

This is also the sort of thing that was fed to me in music school, and it took me many years, one pretty serious bout of carpal tunnel, and a three year hiatus from burnout to realize that they’re generally wrong on both counts.
.

Mick told me he had a policy that he made plain to all his students: DO NOT OVERPRACTICE! If you miss a lesson due to practice related injury, your semester grade will be dropped one half grade for each lesson missed.
He put this in place because at the school he taught at, it was a real issue.

[Reg]

My response was to the OP.
And had nothing to do with enjoyment or personal feelings.


To believe that the "Task,” can be defined to someone who does not have the skills etc. is a maybe. And the environment is an oxymoron situation.


I do believe the individual can be tested and evaluated to help determine skills needed to a point. But defining the goal or result is pretty subjective.

Personally, I love music, learning about music.... and love performing music.

If the Task is learning the fretboard ...starting with one string reference to Mic's Advancing Guitarist is using scales patterns, and Mic taught at the CST school. I went to some of Mic's gigs back in the early 70's. (not school concerts).

So if the test is...? Being happy..... playing gigs, being able to verbally talk about the long and winding road(s)
What is.... being able to play Jazz on a guitar.

Maybe my understanding of Constraint Led Learning is wrong.

Personally, it seems we all have functional levels... of what we can do. Some can fake it better than others. Having technical skills helps turn faking it. Maybe even make faking it become... that thing, whatever one labels it.

There is also the pressure thing, the brain overload thing... I do not have the expertise to explain but have watched the results for ever.

Anyway... it is silly to me personally. But that does not make right or wrong... heaven forbid.

[Krinky]

Mick told me he had a policy that he made plain to all his students: DO NOT OVERPRACTICE! If you miss a lesson due to practice related injury, your semester grade will be dropped one half grade for each lesson missed.
He put this in place because at the school he taught at, it was a real issue.

Possible red flag that his lessons weren't that good?

[pingu]

“can you paint a picture on this canvas ?

“how big is the canvas”

“it’s infinite”

“no then….”

“how about this canvas , it’s 4 foot x 3 foot ?”

”yeah I’ll give that a go,
a picture of a horse OK ?”

“yes that would be nice”

[pamosmusic]

Possible red flag that his lessons weren't that good?

You've got that one exactly backward.

[Reg]

So... Peter what would be your approach for teaching someone to play Jazz Guitar. Say typical rock, folk, blues, rock etc... background skill sets. And not a kid or in a babysitting approach.

How long would it take...

[Bop Head]

So... Peter what would be your approach for teaching someone to play Jazz Guitar. Say typical rock, folk, blues, rock etc... background skill sets. And not a kid or in a babysitting approach.

How long would it take...

I am not Peter but ...

What is a "typical rock, folk, blues, rock etc... background skill set"? Everyone is different. For me a good teacher is able to see where someone is at and helps him/her to go from there. Helps him/her to teach herself. No patent method for everyone.

[pamosmusic]

So... Peter what would be your approach for teaching someone to play Jazz Guitar. Say typical rock, folk, blues, rock etc... background skill sets. And not a kid or in a babysitting approach.

How long would it take...

Oh man, well Babysitting Approach is the name of my forthcoming technical manual.

But otherwise it depends pretty heavily on where they’re starting and what they want to do.

Broad strokes, I usually find folks coming from that background, even with some chops, aren’t flexible enough with scales, don’t have jazz vocabulary (obviously), and don’t really play changes.

So I’m looking for ways I can break into those things with material that isn’t totally foreign to them. Everyone is different in that respect … skill level, interests, goals, etc.

Anyway … With scales, there are some cross position things that help people get moving a bit more, and lots of pretty standard fretboard knowledge things that help to get going.

The blues is the obvious bet for the change playing. They can focus on one arpeggio family and then use common blues reharmonizations to get into minor 7 and major and half diminished ones down the road.

As for vocabulary, Grant Green or Miles Davis is a good bet. But also giving them a framework for understanding lines so they can build their own and start using what they have a little more fluently.

With chords it’s shell voicings and rhythm and shell voicings and rhythm.

How long does it take? Who knows. Everyone is different

I have a couple guys who were strong players already and sound pretty good right now. I’ve got others who are just into the material and like playing. Others who mostly tinker around.

[pamosmusic]

Here’s a fun one …

…

”not kids or babysitting approach.”

I teach an afterschool jazz program and I get third and fourth grade rhythm section. We’ve been getting them together with the horns for “Big Band Day” once a week for a couple weeks and just handed them their first proper chart Friday. It was a super simple C Jam Blues that I arranged, but still.

About four months from the first time they picked up their instruments.

Don’t count out the kids, my friend!

[Jimmy blue note]

Mick told me he had a policy that he made plain to all his students: DO NOT OVERPRACTICE! If you miss a lesson due to practice related injury, your semester grade will be dropped one half grade for each lesson missed.

He put this in place because at the school he taught at, it was a real issue.

Possible red flag that his lessons weren't that good?

Um, maybe, but you'll have to ask Mike Stern, Wayne Krantz, Lage Lund, John Scofield, John Abercrombie, Pat Metheny, Wolfgang Muthspiel, Julian Lage, Ben Monder, Tim Miller, Bill Frisell because these are just a handful of better known players who credit him with being their greatest single teacher when they were in school.
All I can say personally is there was never a question that I asked that he didn't answer me in a way that made me work for it, and what I learned was more comprehensive than any easy answer. No red flag but I will admit to having spoken to students who weren't happy to find out there is no fast easy way to mastery of the instrument. At least not from Mick.

To address the thought that was the catalyst for this comment, there is a school of thought that holds that endless and relentless repetition of unmastered material is the key to mastery; that this brute force approach that can preclude thoughtful application and re-interpretation of this material. The unspoken caveat of this thinking is the danger of creative and physical self destruction.
In the end you yourself decide what works for you. You, yourself is the one who raises the red flags and it's up to you to decide whether to heed them.

[AlexOT]

The blog for this site helped me a lot finding a road I enjoy and learn from. This forum inspires me more than any other website. And I always assumed that the attached forum was a place to ask questions and further explore ideas.

My question, also relates to this discussion, is what is expected of us beginners on the forum? Is posting on this forum better left to (semi) professionals and the experienced players? I often feel just creating noise and wasting space when I try to communicate in different topics. I myself a 43 year old amateur (0 talent) always listening to jazz and playing (hobby, no ego) jazz with my friends. But the discussions here often make me feel too dumb, or not on an adequate level of competence to phrase it better, too participate.

Maybe I should 'shut up, read, listen and practice more'

[Jimmy blue note]

My question, also relates to this discussion, is what is expected of us beginners on the forum? Is posting on this forum better left to (semi) professionals and the experienced players?

People who consider themselves beginners are the most open minded and inspiring people on the forum, in my opinion. An honest inquiring musician can bring out the best (and the worst) in players who've lived with their own answers, revelations, discoveries and prejudices. Jazz is an extremely non linear genre of art that has nearly as many methods and solutions as are practicioners.
A good question from beginners provides a true forum for voicing our individualism but also shows the humbling diversity of "correct" answers.

I, for one, love the presence of an enthusiastic novice over the well versed second hand opinions of the armchair "expert".
But that's just one opinion. I've been deep in this music for more than 4 decades and every time I pick up the guitar, it's plain to me that I'm still a beginner. I'm just lucky to love the unanswered question and the ongoing mystery.

[pamosmusic]

People who consider themselves beginners are the most open minded and inspiring people on the forum, in my opinion. An honest inquiring musician can bring out the best (and the worst) in players who've lived with their own answers, revelations, discoveries and prejudices. Jazz is an extremely non linear genre of art that has nearly as many methods and solutions as are practicioners.
A good question from beginners provides a true forum for voicing our individualism but also shows the humbling diversity of "correct" answers.

I, for one, love the presence of an enthusiastic novice over the well versed second hand opinions of the armchair "expert".
But that's just one opinion. I've been deep in this music for more than 4 decades and every time I pick up the guitar, it's plain to me that I'm still a beginner. I'm just lucky to love the unanswered question and the ongoing mystery.

Hard agree.

Its interesting. People have a hard time accepting that sometimes great players are a bit stuck in their ways. But they have no trouble at all imagining that the grumpy high school history teacher who still uses a chalkboard should probably retire.

People who teach should be kept on their toes and beginners are pretty good at that.