Constraint Led Learning

[Christian Miller]

Otoh there’s a number of more effective and sophisticated ways to reach than simply telling people stuff. Generally making people derive and apply things themselves is best way to encourage long term retention in my experience.

[Krinky]

Yeah. That’s why I doubt the utility of being a purist about much of anything.

I'm not advocating for a purist approach. I'm just defining the terms.

I thought that it was interesting how Goodrich used the approach for learning to play on single strings, so I wanted to know if people had done the same with other guitar skills. I'm just curious about other people's experiences with constraint-led learning on the guitar.

With learning to improvise music you have two things happening: skill acquisition and artistic development. Some people express themselves in a very structured and systematic way, while others are more instinctual. Both can be compelling art. So, you really cannot insist on one way to learn to do it.

[GuyBoden]

I like playing whole tunes on one string. As a practice routine.

Yes, it's taken from the great Mick Goodrick Advancing Guitarist book.

[Christian Miller]

I like playing whole tunes on one string. As a practice routine.

Yes, it's taken from the great Mick Goodrick Advancing Guitarist book.

Peter Bernstein also recommends this. It gets a bit tricky with bebop heads.


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[GuyBoden]

It gets a bit tricky with bebop heads.

I was just playing Bye Bye Blackbird on one string, it's much easier.

[pamosmusic]

Peter Bernstein also recommends this. It gets a bit tricky with bebop heads.


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Yeah I don’t fool with bebop heads but I do all my American songbook tunes on single strings. Especially the top three, because of chords, etc.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I don’t fool with bebop heads but I do all my American songbook tunes on single strings. Especially the top three, because of chords, etc.

I was kind of joking haha….

but…. (No Christian, nooooooooo)


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[Reg]

Otoh there’s a number of more effective and sophisticated ways to reach than simply telling people stuff. Generally making people derive and apply things themselves is best way to encourage long term retention in my experience.

Yea I think I agree, but what are those more effective and sophisticated ways. And what would be the context for that approach. I personally don't like the trial and error approach until, with respect to the fretboard, until the organization of the fretboard is understood.

Or are you generally talking in general.

[pamosmusic]

Yea I think I agree, but what are those more effective and sophisticated ways. And what would be the context for that approach. I personally don't like the trial and error approach until, with respect to the fretboard, until the organization of the fretboard is understood.

Or are you generally talking in general.

Yeah I think learning styles have a lot to do with this too. Generally I do lots of discovery stuff *in the context of something a student just learned about.* Like exploring is a good way to start feeling comfortable with something you’ve learned only recently. Which is a very different thing than letting someone learn a scale pattern by discovery.

I generally find that students who prefer less structure and like to noodle and explore can take a highly structured concept or lesson and just use what they want. Students who prefer high levels of structure can’t take something very loose and unstructured and impose their own structure on it. So I err on the side of more structure, rather than less. Though it’s also important to teach structured learners that they can and should learn how to start imposing their own structures onto looser concepts.

[Krinky]

Otoh there’s a number of more effective and sophisticated ways to reach than simply telling people stuff. Generally making people derive and apply things themselves is best way to encourage long term retention in my experience.

People overemphasize the importance of the learning phase of skill or knowledge acquisition. Whether you are told or discover--it is just the tip of the learning pyramid. Everything that you do with that skill or knowledge afterward is much more important.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah just on the basic level it’s leading the student by asking them questions.

So for a beginner- ‘what’s the advantage of using a different finger for C and A?’, if that’s the C# one higher than the C on the B string, what finger would we use?’ ‘Why that one? Why would we not use the same finger?’ ‘Ok so that’s a D flat, what does it remind you of?’ ‘What’s the problem with playing a Bb?’ ‘Ok - how do you know you got it right?’ ‘What should it sound like?’ Etc.

You can do this with scale fingerings generally. In my experience the toughest thing is getting them to use consistent fingering. Finding the actual notes is less problematic.

The bulk of students are really dependent on being spoonfed info by the teacher. I see a large part of my job as encouraging them to become more independent learners.

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[Christian Miller]

Yeah I think learning styles have a lot to do with this too.

If you are talking about the VARK style learning styles, AFAIK that’s been debunked in the literature (at least that’s what my MA supervisor advised us). Obviously students learn in a different ways OTOH. And then there are SENs of course.

one thing I’ve noticed is that students most often don’t think to *look at* what I am doing for assistance. The idea of demonstration and copying what their teacher is showing them is quite alien to their experience. I find that really interesting. You really have to clue them into the fact that you are showing them what to do a well as telling them. Most look for verbal input because it is what they are used to.

I am probably non diagnosed dyslexic and a hilariously slow verbal responder. I have to remember that if I was in my class I’d be the kid looking a bit confused and trying to strum the guitar with the fretting hand lol.

Anyway, lots to learn.


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[Krinky]

There is one way to learn and infinite excuses.

[Christian Miller]

I generally find that students who prefer less structure and like to noodle and explore can take a highly structured concept or lesson and just use what they want. Students who prefer high levels of structure can’t take something very loose and unstructured and impose their own structure on it. So I err on the side of more structure, rather than less. Though it’s also important to teach structured learners that they can and should learn how to start imposing their own structures onto looser concepts.

I don’t think you mean to set up a binary here, but I’m, for example, getting a student to work out the grips for all the drop2 major seventh chords themselves I’m obviously teaching in a highly structured way with a clear syllabus, desired learning outcomes and lesson plan. It’s just that I might be using small amounts of self directed learning as the principle method of learning information rather than direct ‘transmission education’ style information exchange. But I’m still guiding and advising - most often through targeted questioning.

in this case the process of how you derive voicings and inversions is more important than the voicings in the long run. Although the voicings are also important obviously.

This is all classic Paul Harris ‘the Virtuoso Teacher’ stuff of course. Also it means I skew (ideologically) heavily towards Andragogy or Heutagogy (I would regard being called a Pedagogue an insult haha) but this probably reflects my own inclinations. I don’t see long term value in dependent pedagogical relationships esp. with adults. I can see value in them in the short run, but long term I want to encourage self reliance.


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[pamosmusic]

If you are talking about the VARK style learning styles

never

[pamosmusic]

I don’t think you mean to set up a binary here, but I’m, for example, getting a student to work out the grips for all the drop2 major seventh chords themselves I’m obviously teaching in a highly structured way with a clear syllabus, desired learning outcomes and lesson plan. It’s just that I might be using small amounts of self directed learning as the principle method of learning information rather than direct ‘transmission education’ style information exchange. But I’m still guiding and advising - most often through targeted questioning.

Yeah this sounds about right. I just mean I err on the side of lessons being more structured. Though usually it’s the targeted questions and guided exploratory stuff that tends to actually provide the structure.

I tend to feel like lessons where I’m just telling folks how to do x or y tend to feel less structured actually, in the end.

[Krinky]

I'm self-taught and started very young so I didn't even know about things like CAGED, positions and using the pinky until years after picking up the instrument. I played most of my lines up one string out of desperation to make a noise not because I was inspired by Mick Goodrick!

At least you aren't playing the instrument upside down. Some lefties didn't have anyone to tell them to do otherwise.

[Bop Head]

At least you aren't playing the instrument upside down. Some lefties didn't have anyone to tell them to do otherwise.

Which did not prevent some from becoming virtuosos.

[Krinky]

Otoh there’s a number of more effective and sophisticated ways to reach than simply telling people stuff. Generally making people derive and apply things themselves is best way to encourage long term retention in my experience.

How someone initially learns something is just not that important. Your students' accomplishments are mostly due to the hours they put in away from you.

Long-term retention is much more dependent on review than the initial mode of instruction.

[pamosmusic]

How someone initially learns something is just not that important. Your students' accomplishments are mostly due to the hours they put in away from you.

Long-term retention is much more dependent on review than the initial mode of instruction.

Youre right, but it also sounds like you might be unpleasantly surprised by the negative impact all the crappy teachers out there can have on guitar students

[Krinky]

Youre right, but it also sounds like you might be unpleasantly surprised by the negative impact all the crappy teachers out there can have on guitar students

Funny you said that.

I was just thinking that I should add that the most important thing is that you don't discourage them. Many teachers have great students simply because they weed out the "unworthy". When my sons were in preschool they had a violin teacher weed them out for not being "serious" enough. Granted, they were both knuckleheads. But they both went on to become accomplished musicians.

First do no harm.

[Reg]

Funny you said that.

I was just thinking that I should add that the most important thing is that you don't discourage them. Many teachers have great students simply because they weed out the "unworthy". When my sons were in preschool they had a violin teacher weed them out for not being "serious" enough. Granted, they were both knuckleheads. But they both went on to become accomplished musicians.

First do no harm.

So is the approach different between kids and adults.
And if so... at what point do you quit baby sitting. (I'm not implying baby sitting is bad or wrong).

[Krinky]

In my experience, a lot of babies act like babies.

But, having taught both children and adults, I'd say certain principles are universal, while all people are different.

For example, deliberate practice will work better than mindless repetition for everyone. But how that looks for a given individual will vary.

[Reg]

In my experience, a lot of babies act like babies.

But, having taught both children and adults, I'd say certain principles are universal, while all people are different.

For example, deliberate practice will work better than mindless repetition for everyone. But how that looks for a given individual will vary.

Thanks...I still tend to go with the 5 basic types of peoples. And generally find that almost all people don't change that much. Not bad or good... just helps skip a lot of wasting time.

[pamosmusic]

Thanks...I still tend to go with the 5 basic types of peoples. And generally find that almost all people don't change that much. Not bad or good... just helps skip a lot of wasting time.

……… what are those five types?