Friendly fretboard organization? Is it possible?

[Christian Miller]

Tbh I didn’t put a huge amount of thought into my reply. There are certain inversions of the drop 2 maj7(sus2) that I find basically unplayable on the bottom 4 strings. One of them. I could check to see, but that would mean getting up from this chair.

[pamosmusic]

Tbh I didn’t put a huge amount of thought into my reply. There are certain inversions of the drop 2 maj7(sus4) that I find basically unplayable on the bottom 4 strings. One of them. I could check to see, but that would mean getting up from this chair.

why are you in a chair where there is no guitar within reach?

thats the real question

[Christian Miller]

Ok I tried it and I was thinking of something else

[Christian Miller]

You didn't answer my question. What did I say that was incorrect?



Agreed, but fortunately that's not the issue...or at least it shouldn't be. I was discussing Boden's recollection of the book and taking him at his word. To be fair to Boden, he never stated the book was for SGT, he said some of the stretches were too much for P4 which I interpreted as "written for SGT".

Ok, nonetheless despite your interpretation the book specifies no fingerings and so would apply to any tuning, within the limits of physical possibility. Here it is for reference, you can get the idea of it at looking at one of the pages tbh.

https://modernguitarharmony.com/wp-c...-leading-1.pdf


I think Guy was referring to the difficulty of fingering some of the basic cycles

maybe there’s other stuff that’s easier? It might help to have an extra semitone on the top two strings. Can’t think of anything of the top of my head, but I’m sure there is.

Fair enough. FWIW, I don't care enough to approach chords from the "drop" concept, I just pick a bass note and learn ways to form chords from that point.

OK the drop system is kind of counterintuitive on the guitar, although I do like the way it works from the top voice. Some people, ahem, drop the terminology.

Presumably you play 1 5 3 7 and 1 7 3 5 - so 1st inv of the former (3 7 5 1), 2nd of the latter (5 3 7 1). The second would be 10 x 9 11 7 x in P4. Quite stretchy, although I find it practical, especially in that position. Harder lower down the neck obviously.

I presume that’s what Peter and guy are referring to… there’s others but that springs to mind.

I can do those, including the 2715 which, assuming I read it correctly, is actually fairly easy: the 2 and 7 form a bar and the 1 and 5 get the pinky and middle fingers respectively - it should be the same on your bottom four. Need I note that P4 offers the advantage of available voicings being the same across string sets; one needn't learn three different forms of the same voicing like SGT requires.

I think I was actually thinking of first inv maj9 - 2 7 1 3

[BradGuitar]

If you ever want to piss off Jimmy Bruno, ask him if what he does is the CAGED system. He HATES that term. (Joe Pass used it but Jimmy despises it.) The fingerings are the same.

Jimmy names the five fingerings from the lowest note on the low E string: 5, 6, 7, 2, and 3. (He starts his "Ionian" fingering from the 7th.)
If you change that 7 to a 1, his fingerings relate nicely to the major pentatonic scale: 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6. But again, that's not how he's thinking. His way is simply, "Key of C, these are the notes, and this is where they are on the guitar." (In that key, and avoiding open strings, the fingerings appear in that order: 5.6.7.2.3. For G they appear in this order: 7, 2, 3, 5, 6. For D, the order is 3, 5, 6. 7, 2. And so on. After a while, you don't think about the numbers or the sequences, you just know them.)

Haha yeah it certainly grinds his gears!

[P4guitar]

Ok, nonetheless despite your interpretation the book specifies no fingerings and so would apply to any tuning, within the limits of physical possibility.

My "interpretation" was of Boden's comment, not the book. He corrected me and said his experience was "harder", not impossible.

I think Guy was referring to the difficulty of fingering some of the basic cycles

Possibly, he only said stretches IIRC.

Presumably you play 1 5 3 7 and 1 7 3 5 - so 1st inv of the former (3 7 5 1), 2nd of the latter (5 3 7 1). The second would be 10 x 9 11 7 x in P4. Quite stretchy.

Like I said earlier, I don't even think in those terms. If the fingering is unavailable I find a alternate that conveys the harmonic meaning.

I presume that’s what Peter and guy are referring to… there’s others but that springs to mind.

I don't know what they were thinking of.

I think I was actually thinking of first inv maj9 - 2 7 1 3

Ok. That would not be possible in P4 or on the lower strings in SGT.

There will always be fingerings more available in one tuning over another, only the piano can do it all - within the limits of fingers and reach.

In a tuning like SGT certain string sets prefer different fingerings so one can learn a particular pattern/chord that goes with each string set, typically three forms per chord/pattern. However some string sets can't be used for a particular form because of the fingering difficulties, so one must remember that 2713 isn't available on the lower four strings, but is on the upper or whatever. One may know for example a line/head on the top four strings but be completely unable to play it on other string sets - me, 30 years ago.

In P4 there's only one form, it's the same regardless of string set. The disadvantage is if the fingering is too hard for a chord, a modification to the chord is required: eliminate an unnecessary note or something else. So far, I've always found a workaround. The advantage is the fret board map is greatly simplified, chords and licks are consistent across string sets, and key changes are simplified.

With guitar, it's always going to be a tradeoff. One must choose what's the most important and act accordingly.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, ok you do you.

I’m pretty certain that’s what Peter and Guy were talking about and they can correct me if I’m wrong.

for those of us who are looking into this type of material, this appears to represent some disadvantages for P4 as a tuning for voicings compared to SGT even though it offers advantages in terms of the relative simplicity of mastering the various string groups. (Once you’ve done one you’ve done em all.)

this makes me curious to talk to Ant about it, because you can guarantee as a Ben Monder fan/student he will have gone into the Mick Goodrick material.

[Christian Miller]

Haha yeah it certainly grinds his gears!

and whatever you do don’t refer to ‘Locrian’ or ‘Dorian’.

Actually this approach makes sense to me. The thing that jumps out at me is that it interfaces with chord voicings with the bass on E. This is something I’ve groped my way towards. If I play 5 x 3 5 5 x I want an F major fingering that works with it. In this way everything links up.

[BradGuitar]

and whatever you do don’t refer to ‘Locrian’ or ‘Dorian’.

Definitely don’t do that!