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Originally Posted by roosterjazzez4u
Just as soon as you get as good as it as you are going to get, the finale comes along...
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03-28-2015 06:04 PM
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Thanks guys. To make sure I'm on the same page as you guys...we're talking about "Ticket to Improv" correct?
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Yep,Everything people have said about Conti's products is true they have been a real ground breaking tool for me!
I was lucky and acquired almost the whole product line,along with Just Jazz Guitar magazine 15-75 that contain a lot of Conti chord melody arrangements at a dirt low price and they have been absolutely fantastic.
I already knew how to shred from copying Randy Rhodes and Eddie Van Halen solos some Barney Kessel,Herb Ellis and some chord melody ala Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery,But these Conti products really showed me a lot about soloing over constantly changing chord progressions over jazz standards.
The fingerings for his lead guitar solos fall very naturally on the fretboard and will take you to every fret on the neck and are bebop all the way! I would suggest you get his advanced solos dvds and his chord melody dvds,because they contain most of the meat and potatoes for the advanced player.
His chord melody approach is a little tougher as he uses a different chord for each note of the melody,but he suggests alternate voicings,which he provides and/or just playing the melody note here and there instead of a different chord every time.(Quite a workout!)
The Intro to Improv dvds are kind of geared towards the beginner/intermediate jazz player but still contain some great phrasing.The Source Code books actually cover a lot of the same material that the advanced solos and chord melody dvds do ,a lot of the material kind of overlaps,but there is still a lot of great bebop style material here.
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Yeah,I plan to go back to the intro to improv dvds soon,just because they have such cool phrasing and there are 4 jazz solos over different jazz standards on each one.
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I should have clarified. I am talking about my journey through Conti's method. Originally Posted by edh
YES. I started with Ticket to Improv. I kept quiet about it because I realized that due to the various degrees of expertise on this board, a lot of folks had problems with Conti's method. So I kept plugging away quietly. It was a deep sense of desperation that kept me going as I have literally spent 1000s of dollars buying ALL KINDS OF GUITAR BOOKS. AND, they're all STARING at me as I write this post on shelves. Seriously. Amazon only made the purchases "worse"! ;-)
After about the 3rd in the TICKET TO IMPROV series, I realized that what I was getting from it was more of the ROADMAP to get through a song as opposed to finger dexterity. I began to thirst for the next level. I wanted to play more advanced stuff. And so I abandoned Ticket to Improv without learning the few last tunes on there.
Once you have one song down from Ticket to Improv and you play it 100+ times (yes you have to I'm sorry), you begin to "SEE" or hear your way through say SATIN DOLL which is on the first DVD. Soon you get adventurous and start reorganizing essentially what are chord tone patterns to sound like WHAT YOU HEAR IN YOUR HEAD. And that's what EVERY guitarist is looking for. TO PLAY - AT WILL - what YOU hear in YOUR HEAD as you solo over chord changes. This I believe is what they call "improvising". Like speaking your native language. First you learn the alphabet and then you learn words and soon, you can FREE STYLE poetry as it comes to your mind (improvising).
After that, I jumped into the deep end and started learning the advanced solos (Smoking Lineman series). GREEN DOLPHIN STREET, etc. The solos were SO PHYSICALLY CHALLENGING that I knew immediately that I needed help. Conti's fingers can FLY on the fretboard. I will put him up against any of the Jazz greats in terms of finger dexterity. And I believe he is going to be 70 years old in November of 2015. Talk about muscle memory. Impressive!
Anyway, this is when I picked up THE PRECISION TECHNIQUE. My better half must have been SICK of hearing play those etudes every night after work but she denies getting sick of hearing me play them. HA. My fingers ached at first. My little finger REFUSED TO COOPERATE. I took the DVD ripped the audio off them and put them in a BOSS eband trainer where you can slow down or speed up. (I later switch to software on my laptop computer). I was literally able to detect finger speed improvement by being able to start on a given etude from between 33% to 100% speed over the course of about 7-12 months. And then I would bump the speed past 100% with ideas of eventually playing over CHEROKEE. Still working on getting to that song. Almost daily I did these exercises.
After that I moved to JAZZ LINES. I realized that I was able to navigate these 2 DVDs a little easier because of the practice I had previously had using the TICKET TO IMPROV. And then I went nuts. CHORD MELODY (learning the harmonized scale) Conti has more connecting chords (per scale) than the CHORD MELODY course I also bought later by FRANK VIGNOLA. I went to Frank's and came back to Conti's. Frank's version is "easier" so to speak. Conti gives you more options. Tougher to jump from Chord to chord without slipping here and there. But hey, that's part of the game. It's the big boy version I guess.
Before Jazz Lines, I jumped to THE FORMULA and soon realized that I had bitten off too much to chew. That's when I retreated and am now finishing Jazz lines. It's been a blast. I'm not being "saddled" with someone else's licks so to speak, I am getting a road map from which to learn how to express myself better (which is evolving into my way of hearing things in my head). I HAD TO HAVE PATIENCE and stick-to-it-ness. I had to keep grinding.
Conti doesn't think in terms of "oh I have to use this scale because this chord is a Minor Flat 5 chord.
He thinks in terms of the KEY CENTER of any given song. This way as you play, you are not ENCUMBERED by wondering how to play over EACH CHORD. You PLAY THROUGH THE KEY CENTER. This way you can put your playing on "auto pilot" if you will and FOCUS on MAKING THE MUSIC YOU HEAR in YOUR HEAD.
Once I got this, I didn't care what anyone said about the problems they had with Conti's method.
And if you want to go "out", you can (using various augmented patterns for example) and the slide right back into the key center. It's absolutely fascinating once you start to connect the dots. And it's not as hard as people make it out to be AFTER you've started to swim on your own.
Conti's use of the augmented chord tones hit me hard. I love the sound. Years ago, in a fit of over ambitiousness, I picked up a couple of books by RAMON RICKER one of which is called THE AUGMENTED SCALE IN JAZZ.
I had an "educated musician" friend of mine turn the riffs in that book into MP3 files. All of a sudden, those augmented lines made total sense BECAUSE I had heard versions of them from Conti's DVD.
I could go on and on but I'm sure your musical journey will mirror mine in different ways so enough from me… again!
My 2 cents after almost 2 years. ;-)Last edited by West LA Jazz; 03-28-2015 at 11:52 PM.
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Yeah Boy! Some of that stuff was pretty tough!I loved the augmented triads over A7th in his Georgia on my Mind solo dvd!I didn't find it too difficult to play,but it sure opened my mind on how to to approach an A7#5 altered chord!
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I say to heck with people that criticize Robert Conti's methods,they work!The man is a great member of the jazz guitar community and was friends with Joe Pass and many others.And I believe one day everyone who plays jazz guitar will know how great a musician he is too!And if they don't that's their loss! And since I'm done working for now I'll drink to Robert Conti's good health,Cheers!
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I've been working my way through "The Jazz Lines". I'm really enjoying it. Fun with a looper especially. Thanks for the pep talk guys! You always wonder if you're just having a good time or actually going somewhere.
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Keep on keeping on pal, and soon you will be singing the melodies you hear in your heart on your instrument!! Originally Posted by geoffsct
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I would also like to mention that prior to getting into Conti's approach to single string soloing that I had learned scales and modes and I was able to identify his use of harmonic minor scale over a minor 2 5 1(C harmonic minor over Dm7b5 to G7),F melodic minor over Bb7(lydian dominant 7th) ,major and minor scales a half step up from dominant chords,lydian mode over Maj7 chords,his use of the blues scale,augmented triads and wholetone scales over dominant chords,double stops and how he uses chromatic notes with all of these scales to connect them and make really cool lines and solos.If you don't understand this stuff,don't worry just learn the lines and you'll get it.
So anyone with this knowledge will instantly see his use of this material,but the important thing is to learn his lines and solos get them under your fingers and worry about the theory later.The Intro to Improv dvds are probably the best place to start,not technically demanding,just nice sounding jazz solos.
Each Intro to Improv dvd contains four solos over four standards.The Jazz Lines book is a good start for more advanced players and it contains a more advanced solo over the changes to Green Dolphin Street at the end of the book which has a lot of his concepts.All of the Sound of Rio dvds have excellent solos,Georgia on my Mind dvd is also great.
As he states in all of his dvds, in the 60's when he and all his buddies including Pat Martino were learning jazz they didn't talk about scales and modes they shared the new licks,lines and phrases they got from their jazz heroes of the day.
All of these lines are definately influenced by Wes Montgomery,Johnny Smith,Pat Martino and most of the other greats you can think of.As he teaches in his dvds the point is to be able to play jazz not scales,even though all of the solos contain elements of the above mentioned scales.I hope this helps anyone who is on the fence about purchasing Robert Conti's books and dvds.I know I am still learning from and enjoying all of them.
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Originally Posted by edh
Yeah, milkmannv. You keep talking "intro to improv". Originally Posted by milkmannnv
We're assuming you mean "ticket to improv" I think. That's his "intro" series.
By the way, are you a Nevada dairy farmer? ;-) Just curious about the screen name....Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-29-2015 at 10:34 AM.
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My bad,Ticket to Improv is the correct title,a rose by any other name is still a rose.No,I am a construction worker/handyman,Milkman,is a nickname some people gave me a long time ago because of my love for milk.
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Charlie Parker learned Lester Young solos, yes, and Wes Montgomery learned Charlie Christian solos, but I don't think Joe Pass learned Django solos. Joe admitted Django inspired him but he (Joe) never played like Django. (He did, however, learn Charlie Parker solos.....) I'm not sure why, but he just didn't. (There's an interview floating around the Forum in which Joe talked about this.) Originally Posted by milkmannnv
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I thought I read somewhere that he had copied Django.But what I was trying to express was that everybody at one time or another copied the solos of others in order to learn the jazz language.
Also I never said anything about Joe Pass playing like Django Reinhardt.Joe Pass played like Joe Pass and Django Reinhardt played like Django Reinhardt. ;^)Last edited by milkmannnv; 03-29-2015 at 03:32 PM.
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I'll have to admit, I bought the chord-melody booklet years ago and was disappointed when it arrived. It was very thin, and when I opened it and saw heads with chord diagrams stamped above...I closed it and never opened it again. See when I buy a book of "chord melody arrangements" I expect fully notated scores. That is typically what you get when you purchase a book of solo guitar arrangements. So when I saw his "arrangements" (I'm not sure you can really call them that), I was thinking, "Ok, he either doesn't know how to notate his arrangements or he is too lazy" (it does take a fair amount of work to notate even your own arrangements). In either case that made me feel he had nothing to offer as a teacher. I know you could argue he designed the book for those who can't read music notation, which lets face it, would be most guitarists. But if that were the case he could put TAB in addition to the full notation. So my original thought that he didn't know how or was too lazy must be true, more than likely the lack of ability because I don't get the impression that he is lazy, he does have amazing chops. Anyways, maybe I'll have to take a second look to see why everyone seems to love his books. From the clips of his single line videos I've seen, I get the impression that a lot of his teaching method is just learning things by him showing you things and you copying him. Is this true? If that is the case then it's not much of a job of teaching that he is doing. Having said all that, if someone teaching you lines by simple demonstration with no explanation is good enough for you, have at it.
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One man's tab is another man's chord grid? What's the difference? He prefers grids for CM. Uses TAB for single- note stuff incidentally. He has a line of "how to" products and a line of "arrangements" products. He seems to resonate with a lot of students who actually use the material.
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I can't get past the hard sell and the fact I don't really care for his playing...but folks have definitely seen results from his stuff. I do respect the no nonsense attitude and the fact it's all based on playing...because in that respect, he's dead on.
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His way of writing his chord melody is a little unusual,with chord grids on top of each note of the melody, but after getting his Since I fell for you and God bless the child chord melody dvds,I decided to bite the bullet and learn some of his other arrangements.
He has also been published in about 40 articles in Just Jazz Guitar magazine, about half of them are his chord melody arrangements and there are some videos of him playing/teaching them on their website.
I still prefer the chord melody arrangements written in standard notation with or without tabs,but what I have seen and heard of him playing these arrangements, they are worth learning.He says in his dvds and jjg articles that people who can't read will still be able to play the arrangements by following the chord grids.
I guess if someone wanted to they could learn the arrangements bar by bar and then write them out in standard notation with or without tab for easier reading and reference.Also he suggests you can drop a chord or two here and there and just play the melody.
I personally try to play his or anybody else's stuff note for note then after having memorized it, slowly start changing it by sliding into a chord,arppegiating a series of chords,using a different voicing,omit the chord and throw in a little fill,just anything I can think of that will change the arrangement from the source I got it from and make it more into my own creation,while still keeping it recognizable.
That is where the creative part comes in,most musicians will tire of playing someone else's solos note for note after awhile.They might still throw in a lick they stole or as a quote when a certain chord comes up,but generally I don't think people want to play Coleman Hawkins solo every time they play Body and Soul.In my opinion that's what jazz improvisation is about,steal from everyone you can then change it,that's what keeps jazz growing and moving ahead while still retaining it's roots.Last edited by milkmannnv; 03-29-2015 at 05:51 PM.
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I haven't actually seen Conti's stuff, but from what I'm reading here, couldn't you just save your money and transcribe your favourite players? (And then you're also developing your ear as a bonus...)
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Why can't I do both? Using Conti's learning tools has actually sharpened my ear and helped me to transcribe the other bebop players I like.There is a wealth of materials available to guitarist's now,this website being one of them.Why not shorten the learning curve and use them?
Last edited by milkmannnv; 03-30-2015 at 06:44 AM.
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This is a total misunderstanding of the Conti approach. Originally Posted by Guitarzen
As Conti says in all his videos, you learn by doing. He gives you a direct way to get playing jazz. Doing it comes first, thinking about it second.
The Conti approach gave me the uplift I needed to play chorus after chorus of improve over a standard. I learned the lines and some of the solos and then applied them, broke them up, extended them, etc......
Conti is not an academic, he is an old-school player and teaches jazz pretty much the way he learned it.
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Yes I'm with you. I felt the same when I bought the book and I too wondered how thin the book was. I was very glad to have the DVDs because I could see what he was playing. And then I started playing each of the harmonized chord lines. My challenge (and it's a challenge) was to be able to play each of the harmonized chords at increasing speed from first chord to the end because being able to play them cleanly without flubbing notes has to be mastered in order to communicate a song nicely and CLEANLY to an audience. Originally Posted by Guitarzen
And then as I watched the video's Conti's words hit me and have stayed with me to this day. The action is ALL on the fretboard. The paper doesn't matter if I can't execute on the fretboard because the fretboard is where the music is made - my fingers have to find a way to play any chord sequence cleanly at increasing speeds. I played the chords nicely at a slow pace but as the speed increased? Hello! It felt like the world famous slap Cher delivers in Moonstruck!
I recall Benson joking on a recent talk show that if he got paid for the mistakes he makes on stage, he'd have more money. The way he plays wild chord melodies when soloing, the flubs become part of the over all sound.
And then when I saw his performance of Danny Boy for the first time on Youtube (in Ireland) I wondered why he didn't do more of that stuff. Later, in yet another video (I think it was), he revealed that he had been practicing that same song for at least a year before he had the nerve to play it on stage. At the end of Danny Boy, Benson wipes "mock" sweat from his brow. It made me appreciate the fact that he spent a whole year practicing it. NOTE: Benson talks about playing the song using triads and how liberating it was for him. It would be even harder playing that song with the insane riffs Benson throws in if he used some of the large Chords Conti uses in his book.
For me, it's been thank God for DVDs because the learning curve of actually EXECUTING ON THE FRETBOARD has been greatly diminished. Picking up guitar technique by myself from a book (alone in my man cave) has been like the blind leading the blind. After picking up the technique I now see the books in a whole new light.
If I had found Conti's DVDs when the first came out, I would have been DEFINITELY have saved 1000s of dollars on the books I have on my shelves. But hey, what's a library for huh? ;-)
PS: It should be noted that on TRUEFIRE.COM, they dispense with books almost completely (save chord charts and the requisite explanations) in favor of SHOWING you where to PUT your fingers. After playing Conti's chord charts, FRANK VIGNOLA'S chord melody system was easy to assimilate as his chords are also smaller and simpler than Conti's big boy chords.
Incidentally, there an old Conti video on there also. I wondered if that's one of the things that sparked the idea of moving his books or shall we say adding the DVD format to his books. Obviously, he's an effective one on one teacher (IE: showing you where to put your fingers to get you going in PLAYING) which probably spurred him writing the books in the first place.Last edited by West LA Jazz; 03-31-2015 at 10:08 AM.
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Another valuable contribution of Robert Conti's materials is that as well as being wonderfully accessible to everyone even at basic beginner levels they are also highly affordable. This coupled with the fact that they can be purchased one at a time as opposed to a "complete" and costly "course of study" makes them readily available to all
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I found the grids helpful. Ted Greene used grids too. Leon White----a guitarist / teacher less well known than he should be---wrote an excellent book decades ago called "Styles for the Studio" which used neither musical notation nor tab---it was all grids. First-rate stuff. (I've exchanged emails with Leon and believe that book will soon be re-issued. Those who frequent the Ted Greene site will find some of Leon's work there. 9 Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
I have Conti material with tab and musical notation, and also musical notation and grids.
One thing about Conti's CM arrangements is that they're not meant to be played exactly as written. They can be, but Conti tends to use a (different) chord for every melody note. It's a lush style. Many players don't want (or are not yet able to handle) such a full arrangement, so they may use two chords rather than four in a measure, or sometimes just one. It's like a menu of options. You can leave out several voicings and still have a solid arrangement.
He really doesn't expect students to play things just the way he does. Rather, he sets things up so the advanced student has an advanced arrangement while the less advanced student can come up with one he can handle that still works. Easier said than done.
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I agree with this. One of his favorite sayings is, "You learn jazz by playing jazz." You have to get the lines under your fingers. You have to be able to make the chords, the changes, and play some jazzy lines over them. His view----some may disagree, of course----is that it is easier to understand why something works after you've learned how to play it and hear yourself play it than it is to study the theory of why a certain line sings against a certain chord but not be able to play the line or the chord. Originally Posted by CliveR
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