SHOULD we study and practice scales and modes?

[fumblefingers]

That sounds cool advice abracadabra

I have been studying the chord tones of C major all over neck last few days, so.
Some of the chords are SO beautiful they trance me out---which is all good too

elixy - are you sure its the chords?

[fumblefingers]

let's face it, there's a lot more--i mean infinitely more, information and knowledge available to us nowadays. This is both a blessing and a curse.quick, name all the other great european guitarists who were django's contemporaries.tough to make a list, right?that's because, while many of the greats learned by listening and imitating, it's a tough way to learn. it takes a lot of time just to get a good enough ear to be even ABLE to transcribe!technology and education have given us a lot, and there's a lot more "good" players out there than ever. There's also just as few truly great ones--some folks are going to have it, a special drive, a bit of natural ability (if you beleive in that), or at least such a strong affinity that they log the 10,000 or so hours needed to be simply "good" and eventually go far beyond that. But that's a rare breed.If we can get past the fact that maybe not all of us will be virtuosos, we can appreciate the fact that we probably CAN be good enough at what we do to A. keep getting better, B. make a living or at least a lifelong enjoyable hobby out of it and C. keep learning as we go. In the end though, because barney kessel learned by copying and playing charlie christian solos note for note only means that that worked well for barney. Any good guitarist would have had a thirst for knowledge, and likely sought any resource available.so yes, transcribe. but yes, learn songs. yes, practice scales. just apply everything you learn--if you can use it in the music you enjoy, then it's worth learning

nice post.

but for the record it ain't just Barney who studied at "Christian school" if you get my drift. not by a looooong shot. Wes and Jim were two other biggies for starters.

[fumblefingers]

I share Conti's viewpoint, but I'm not fond of his playing.

It's my personal opinion that modes, scales, and theory could do more harm than good.

When one is concerned with the theoretical aspect of music, I feel it is easy to forget how it sounds to the ear, and that's what's most important.

i hear ya. i have a different take.

i dont think it's the theory, i think its the application. or shall is say, the lack thereof.

Dick Grove said of classical music "its ear music, its just taught wrong".

knowledge is not harmful, folks. but ineffective and inefficient emphasis and focus sure as heck can be.

[Uli]

It's the post-modern condition. Everything is at hand. You can't go beyond knowledge. Unless you decide to cut off completely, wrap yourself in a fur and retreat in a cave somewhere.
Which means: There might be another Django. But just being illiterate is not a necessary prerequisite for making progress.

[elixzer]

Elixzer,in one of your latest threads I made the suggestion that instead of full bar chords you should learn 6432,5321,5432,4321( i think thats right)chords they should suit you better,to that list add 3 note comping chords and you have got it made.But if you learn all keys in all positions it makes learning these chords easier.

Cheers Tom

I dont understand what the numbers mean. Are they normal tabs?

And what is 'adding 3 comping chords' mean. I FEEL your saying something significant but I have to fully undersdtand it first.

[billkath]

I dont understand what the numbers mean. Are they normal tabs?

And what is 'adding 3 comping chords' mean. I FEEL your saying something significant but I have to fully undersdtand it first.

Tom is talking about partial barre's, Elixzer.
So- the numbers refer to string numbers. 5432, for example, means barre'ing those 4 strings- the a, D, G and B. Practice by just doing the barre at the first fret, and then move it up 1 fret at a time. You need to make sure those 4 strings, and only those 4 strings sound clear.
By 3-note comping chords he's refering to 3 note chords. chords that only have 3 notes.

[fep]

I have been reading about Robert Conti, and checked out some videos of his guitar playing which see really cool.

At his site he really warns against people being conned by pseudo Jazz 'masters' of guitar who promise the world for money, and Conti emphasizes the need to ALWAYS ask for credentials.

But this thread is more about Conti's philosophy that it is useless to learn scales and modes for improvisation:

"Like the early Founding Fathers, the verifiable high level of Robert Conti's playing skill is the result of NOT studying modes, scales and theory. Since 1966, he has adhered to an unshakeable philosophy that spending time memorizing modes and scales will take you forever to get nowhere, as the only thing you will accomplish is playing scales very well. As indicated in the interview excerpt below, Robert's philosophy since he began teaching in 1966 is to direct all energies toward playing the music and the working theory will become obvious as a result of playing."

"...you can only learn to play jazz guitar - by practicing jazz, not useless modes or scales. In direct contradiction to modes and scales"

"As most aspiring students soon discover, there is no shortage of educators who will try to convince you to believe that modes, scales and theory are the only correct path to learn to play improvised jazz. The obvious question - if improvising well is your goal, then why pursue modes, scales and theory first? After spending several months or years trying to comprehend modes, scales and theory you'll still need to learn to play.
Conversely, if you expend your energy learning to play well (the same approach as all the early greats) you'll quickly discover two great truths: 1) Modes and scales are useless. They were not necessary for stellar players like Wes Montgomery, Grant Green et al and they are most certainly not necessary for you to learn. 2) Theory suddenly becomes obvious as a by-product of playing lines that are tangible enough for clear analysis.

From the student perspective, the best part of this pragmatic approach is that they have the great pleasure of practicing and playing jazz on their instrument, rather than trying to comprehend painfully boring modes, theory, scales etc."

I think that is way overboard, I'd bet Conti knows scales and modes, and I could shoot a bunch of holes in that approach, and there are a ton of great musicians and music educators that would disagree.

But I think there is a good point to take from what Conti says. Even though I believe you should study theory and practice scales and arps as these skills are important. I also believe most of your practice time should be spent learning songs and playing music.

There are important creative and problem solving processes that happen when you learn tunes and figure out how you are going to play a tune (e.g. comping here, figuring out a walking bass line with chords here, playing over this tritone sub here, transcribing a solo and analyzing what is theoretically going on in the solo.... etc. etc.)

These creative and problem solving processes need to be developed and you don't develop them by just playing scales, arps and other excercises. You develop them by figuring stuff out for yourself and applying them to songs.

[elixzer]

Tom is talking about partial barre's, Elixzer.
So- the numbers refer to string numbers. 5432, for example, means barre'ing those 4 strings- the a, D, G and B. Practice by just doing the barre at the first fret, and then move it up 1 fret at a time. You need to make sure those 4 strings, and only those 4 strings sound clear.
By 3-note comping chords he's refering to 3 note chords. chords that only have 3 notes.

Oh thats clear then. I just did that from 1-12 fret and all sound clear!

just tried the 6432, not so though when it gets to fret 5 etc

are not 3 note chords scale chords?

[derek]

Look fellas, Mr. Conti has a professional marketing team who puts this stuff together. His initial approach was WAY over the top. He has toned it down over the years. Depending on which volume you get, he is going to teach you some lines that can be looked at from a chord tone, scalular or modal approach.

These are ways to view the board, afterall, it is the same 12 notes. He shows you how to apply these same lines in diffferent ways. Jimmy Bruno advertises the same No Modes approach. It is marketing hype. You can bet your life that both are very familiar with every scale and every mode.

I like both Conti's and Bruno's materials, but as pointed out above, there is more than one way to the top of the mountain. I am of the same opinion as Mr. B, and Goofsus4, chord/scale and modal thinking is a bit much for beginner players. It is something to add later on, after you have a good grasp of chord tone (including guide tones) playing.

[elixzer]

Look fellas, Mr. Conti has a professional marketing team who puts this stuff together. His initial approach was WAY over the top. He has toned it down over the years. Depending on which volume you get, he is going to teach you some lines that can be looked at from a chord tone, scalular or modal approach.

These are ways to view the board, afterall, it is the same 12 notes. He shows you how to apply these same lines in diffferent ways. Jimmy Bruno advertises the same No Modes approach. It is marketing hype. You can bet your life that both are very familiar with every scale and every mode.

I like both Conti's and Bruno's materials, but as pointed out above, there is more than one way to the top of the mountain. I am of the same opinion as Mr. B, and Goofsus4, chord/scale and modal thinking is a bit much for beginner players. It is something to add later on, after you have a good grasp of chord tone (including guide tones) playing.

These are ways to view the board, afterall, it is the same 12 notes. He shows you how to apply these same lines in diffferent ways. Jimmy Bruno advertises the same No Modes approach. It is marketing hype. You can bet your life that both are very familiar with every scale and every mode.

lol, I have been thinking this too. For example, when ANY musician is on the market for clients it is 'worth their while' to have something 'noone else got', and you can only get signing up/paying money. So there's the promise that you will be the one to get to the 'real deal'---and tread the same path as the 'Founding Fathers'.

It will also prey on your fear of getting stuck in a mechanical mode, but which IS possible as someone also stressed above.
So in free spirit it would be cool to explore ways then NOT top get trapped in a scales/mode mechanistic mode of playing.

Several years or more ago I heard a Jazz musican say that--wish I could remember hius name! he said that he hated most Jazz 'now' because most of the players were just playing scales!
So can we then move onto how NOT to get caught in that? If its been covered in this thread it'd be well worth repeating?

[fep]

Several years or more ago I heard a Jazz musican say that--wish I could remember hius name! he said that he hated most Jazz 'now' because most of the players were just playing scales!
So can we then move onto how NOT to get caught in that? If its been covered in this thread it'd be well worth repeating?

How not to get caught up in that?... I already said it and I'll keep saying it:

Quoting myself:

I also believe most of your practice time should be spent learning songs and playing music.

[elixzer]

How not to get caught up in that?... I already said it and I'll keep saying it:

Quoting myself:

OK. I have been heading towards there. I realized I needed to familiarize my self with jazz chords which I am doing---the C major chord tomes. THEN I will look at their inversions, and interspersed I am playing progressions to see how they work toether. One progression that sends me is Cmajor7, Am7, Em7 mainly at bottom of neck where you really just do slighest finger moves, but SUCH a groove!!

[Gramps]

Elixzer,

Judging by the questions you ask, the Conti stuff is too advanced for you.

"Alright let me break this down: If he means 'improve' that would cancel out his statement that the very learning of scales and modes is a waste of time"

If you're learning licks over chords they are made from scales so you'll learn aspects of scales. Modes are based on scales also so the same applies.

The only thing that is a waste of time is not spending time playing rather than trying to find concensus on the internet.

Try learning the chords and melody to a song or two. Myself and others have told you this in the past and it didn't seem to stick.

[elixzer]

Elixzer,

Judging by the questions you ask, the Conti stuff is too advanced for you.

"Alright let me break this down: If he means 'improve' that would cancel out his statement that the very learning of scales and modes is a waste of time"

If you're learning licks over chords they are made from scales so you'll learn aspects of scales. Modes are based on scales also so the same applies.

The only thing that is a waste of time is not spending time playing rather than trying to find concensus on the internet.

Try learning the chords and melody to a song or two. Myself and others have told you this in the past and it didn't seem to stick.

I have just told here that it has stuck---resonated is a better term

I am learning chord tones. How the heck can I learn a song unless I KNOW chords involved and know where they can be located. So I am doing good (pats hisself on head )

[Gramps]

Good job. Now pick an easy song and learn the chords and melody. Since you already know a Maj7 and m7 voicing you can move those around the fingerboard to make any Maj7 or m7 you need. Now learn a Dom7 in a closed possition and you will have enough to get through a simple jazz song. If you add a m7b5 and diminished chord too you'll have the basic tools to start leaning songs. You don't need to memorize where all of them are, all over the fingerboard before playing any songs. Learn one voicing with the tonic on the low E string and one with the tonic on the A string. Once you have those and can use them in song or two you can work on other inversions and alterations.

After you know a couple of songs you can start applying the new concepts you pick up to those songs.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

How the heck can you learn soloing unless you know the chord to solo over?

I agree with that 100%, but then I'm not a horn player.

[mr. beaumont]

Elixzer, it really looks as though you need a teacher. I like you, and I fear the internet has the capacity to do more harm than good, so you're getting a free lesson.

First, there are three, non-negotiable things you must learn.

1. the names of all the notes on the fretboard

2. all 12 major scales (i don't care if you can play them, you gotta be able to SPELL them, i.e, C major-- C D E F G A B)

3. Chord formulas for four critical chords: maj7, dom7, m7, and m7b5 (half diminished)

maj7: R 3 5 7
dom7: R 3 5 b7
m7: R b3 5 b7
m7b5: R b3 b5 b7

...and thereby how to spell any chord in any key. So three months from now, somebody should be able to say Dm7, and you can rattle off D, F, A, C like telling someone your phone number. Simply take the major scale based on the root (so for any "G" type chord, even minors, take a G major scale) and lower the needed notes. For example-- Gm7b5: G major scale: G A B C D E F#, take the root, G, third B, fifth D and seventh, F#-- flat the third, fifth and seventh, and get G, Bb, Db, F

Chords are gonna be where it's at for a bit. We're putting scales away, aside from that ever-important major. Modes are somewhere in Kansas now, and won't be arriving till much later. They haven't even bought a train ticket yet.)

Take the three non-negotiables and work with them for a half hour a day. You'll have 'em licked in three months, two if you work really hard. That's a groundwork for everything that will come.

In the meantime, I'm also gonna get you started with 12 critical chord "shapes." Let's get away from this "one key at a time" business, while that's nice and all, very few jazz songs stay in one key, and we gotta get you playing songs, or you're gonna get bored fast.

You're not just getting freebies here, though, You're gonna have to do some work with these as well. I'm gonna give you them all spelled from C, which means you'll need to transpose them to all 11 remaining "roots." This will give you 144 chords by the end of your three month (hopefully 2) trial by fire. There will be three chord forms for each of the afforementioned "critical types," one with a root on the 6th string, one with a root on the 5th, one with a root on the 4th.

here they are:

Cmaj7

8 x 9 9 8 x
x 3 5 4 5 x
x x 10 12 12 12

C7 (dom7)

8 x 8 9 8 x
x 3 5 3 5 x
x x 10 12 11 12

Cm7

8 x 8 8 8 x
x 3 5 3 4 x
x x 10 12 11 11

Cm7b5

8 x 8 8 7 x
x 3 4 3 4 x
x x 10 11 11 11

pay very close attention to what's moving where. look at the similarities and differences. It's up to you to figure out which note is which, and you'll be able to do that once you master the "non-negotiable" items.

Now pick a few songs, learn the chords, and try to play the chords "close by" each other. This will force you to use all 12 shapes and internalize them.

I'll see you in three (hopefully 2) months

[Gramps]

BigDaddy,

Don't you think horn players know what chord they're playing over? Of course they do. How else could they play without knowing the changes.

[abracadabra]

As a result of reading over this thread I've decided to stop focusing on scales and modes. I generally play these for 15-20 min a day with a metronome, but given that my practice time is so short, I think I could use my time better.

I've learned so many scales, all over the neck, but I can't actually use more than a few of them. I think I'll cut these ones out and worry about them later.

I'm going to change that portion of practice from Scales and Modes to 'Metronome' practice, where I play loads of things that are relevent to my current abilities but against a metronome, as that's really helping my playing.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

BigDaddy,

Don't you think horn players know what chord they're playing over? Of course they do. How else could they play without knowing the changes.

Just kidding. Actually, an interesting question would be to contrast how, say, guitar, piano, trumpet and scat improvisers approach it. Maybe be a fly on the wall in a sax forum...

[elixzer]

Elixzer, it really looks as though you need a teacher. I like you, and I fear the internet has the capacity to do more harm than good, so you're getting a free lesson.

First, there are three, non-negotiable things you must learn.

1. the names of all the notes on the fretboard

2. all 12 major scales (i don't care if you can play them, you gotta be able to SPELL them, i.e, C major-- C D E F G A B)

3. Chord formulas for four critical chords: maj7, dom7, m7, and m7b5 (half diminished)

maj7: R 3 5 7
dom7: R 3 5 b7
m7: R b3 5 b7
m7b5: R b3 b5 b7

...and thereby how to spell any chord in any key. So three months from now, somebody should be able to say Dm7, and you can rattle off D, F, A, C like telling someone your phone number. Simply take the major scale based on the root (so for any "G" type chord, even minors, take a G major scale) and lower the needed notes. For example-- Gm7b5: G major scale: G A B C D E F#, take the root, G, third B, fifth D and seventh, F#-- flat the third, fifth and seventh, and get G, Bb, Db, F

Chords are gonna be where it's at for a bit. We're putting scales away, aside from that ever-important major. Modes are somewhere in Kansas now, and won't be arriving till much later. They haven't even bought a train ticket yet.)

Take the three non-negotiables and work with them for a half hour a day. You'll have 'em licked in three months, two if you work really hard. That's a groundwork for everything that will come.

In the meantime, I'm also gonna get you started with 12 critical chord "shapes." Let's get away from this "one key at a time" business, while that's nice and all, very few jazz songs stay in one key, and we gotta get you playing songs, or you're gonna get bored fast.

You're not just getting freebies here, though, You're gonna have to do some work with these as well. I'm gonna give you them all spelled from C, which means you'll need to transpose them to all 11 remaining "roots." This will give you 144 chords by the end of your three month (hopefully 2) trial by fire. There will be three chord forms for each of the afforementioned "critical types," one with a root on the 6th string, one with a root on the 5th, one with a root on the 4th.

here they are:

Cmaj7

8 x 9 9 8 x
x 3 5 4 5 x
x x 10 12 12 12

C7 (dom7)

8 x 8 9 8 x
x 3 5 3 5 x
x x 10 12 11 12

Cm7

8 x 8 8 8 x
x 3 5 3 4 x
x x 10 12 11 11

Cm7b5

8 x 8 8 7 x
x 3 4 3 4 x
x x 10 11 11 11

pay very close attention to what's moving where. look at the similarities and differences. It's up to you to figure out which note is which, and you'll be able to do that once you master the "non-negotiable" items.

Now pick a few songs, learn the chords, and try to play the chords "close by" each other. This will force you to use all 12 shapes and internalize them.

I'll see you in three (hopefully 2) months

Hey THANKS very much. I so appreciate that

For the last few days I have been soaking myself into playing and trying to memorize the chord tones from Cmajor. I am trying to do this over and over till it sinks in. When I do it, I ttry and look where fingers are on the strings the notes. AND try and sometimes figure the scales that get me to where my fingers are on notes of chord.
Now sometimes I am getting mixed up--ie., I will get to G7 for instance and have to stop to think what shape to get and not get it mixed up with a Mm7 shape (up the neck)--But i am getting better

As soon as i get AS familiar with them as I am with the usual chords Cmj, A7, G, Dmaj---all those at bottom of neck which I can get pretty quick is when i plan on then looking at the inversions of these chord tones

I tried to get some inversions last night but got confused. Why?
Well, I am aware how to get regular triadic inversions (thoufgh i am at beginner stage with them too)---so say I have a second inversion at bottom of neck, or first---i count down the root to 3, the 3 to 5, the the 5 to 1, etc. But when I tried to do this with Am7 with the root being the open A, and E---- it confused me WHAT to count down---well i suppse i would count down the. I am assuming that is the way to do it?

But really I am wanting to memorize the chord tones better first.

Why?

Well in the Jazzguitar Chords e-book it tells us to really memorize them so you know the shapes without thinking. This made me devote most of my practice focus to doing this.

So let me ask you--how does what you advise above work into what i am doing? How does it fastrack my learning curve?
How would you compare it with what i am already doing?

[mr. beaumont]

Well, i dunno if it fast-tracks anything. It's gonna be a lot of work.

What I advise, I guess, in a nutshell, is intended to do two things. One, to get you comfortable with playing the chords to a song in one area of the neck without jumping around, and two, to get you understanding the "why" and "how" of building chords. You figure, once you can spell a chord AND know the notes on the fretboard, there's no reason to "memorize" any "shapes" again, you can grab everything as you need it and USE it.

thereby, with the actual USING, you'll internalize them and yes, memorize them.

I advocate learning jazz guitar like a piano player learns to play--you play melody AND chords, eventually simultaneously. Guitarists tend to seperate things into "lead" and "rhythm" camps too much...

once you get a feel for chords all over the neck, improvising becomes as easy as "connecting the dots," as what'll happen is, as soon as you see a chord the fretboard will essentially light up with possibilities.

I have been working on a book that'll likely never get published (or finished, at this rate) but that's the overall concept, anyway.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I tried to get some inversions last night but got confused. Why?
Well, I am aware how to get regular triadic inversions (thoufgh i am at beginner stage with them too)---so say I have a second inversion at bottom of neck, or first---i count down the root to 3, the 3 to 5, the the 5 to 1, etc. But when I tried to do this with Am7 with the root being the open A, and E---- it confused me WHAT to count down---well i suppse i would count down the. I am assuming that is the way to do it?

What you write there is hard to understand. I find a good way to express myself (not just for chords but for anything in life!) is to always give an example:

It sounds like you are taking this Amin7 in root position:


[chord]

x||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
_||-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
7||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
_||---|-5-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
R||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
x||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]

and wanting to calculate the first inversion by sliding up: R->3, 3->5, 5->7, 7->R:

[chord]

x||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
_||---|---|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
_||---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
_||---|---|---|---|-7-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
_||---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
x||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]

I'd go with what MrB suggests -- he's giving you a free lesson! Learn the root positions of Maj7, dom7th, min7 and min7b5 chords first, with the root on the 6th, 5th and 4th string.

Once you are comfortable with root positions, move on to first inversion. I would just learn the grips from scratch rather than this "move up" technique I used right here, but your mileage, as they say ... may vary.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

BTW, one thing that I find useful is that when you know how to comp a song comfortably, transpose it on the fly: don't do this, say, going down or up a step because that's cheating: key of C, key of B, key of Bb... naughty! Instead, go around the circle of fifths:

Key of C,
F,
Bb
...
D
G
C

That way you'll end up playing all the chords.

[rjtorres]

Wow, what a thread to read. But I can't believe no one has pointed this out earlier (or maybe I wasn't reading this thread entirely):

"1) Modes and scales are useless. They were not necessary for stellar players like Wes Montgomery, Grant Green et al and they are most certainly not necessary for you to learn."

While Wes or Grant may not find it necessary to learn modes and scales, there are other players who don't find it necessary to learn this as well but play disgustingly. At the same time, there are those who learn scales and modes and play very well, like Pat Metheny or John Scofield, but there are also those who knows them but doesn't really know how to play. So, it's not really safe to equate being a stellar player with knowledge of scales and modes, or lack thereof.

Why learn them at all then? Well, it's still knowledge. Using them correctly will definitely help you out. It's learning by reading, not listening. In any case, it's still learning.

Theory's a tool you can use. Having a hammer can help you drive nails through wood, if you know how to use them well; if not, well you just have a hammer, and you might your hand trying to use them.


Sharing my personal experience, if I learned only by hearing, it would take me a lot of years to play good. I tried it, learned jazz for about a year by just listening, and while I can play some tunes, I sound like crap, and I don't know how to reuse what I've learned over other songs. I guess what I'm saying is, my ears were really bad. I can't understand fast lines, or even some of the slow ones. Nothing makes sense at the start. Then I start reading, and learning. I did have a private instructor who taught me music theory correctly (learning them over the internet or some book is really hard, if not impossible.) I stopped the lesson after learning how to learn, and continued on my own, using some books I've bought. It's been another year now, and I could say I've improved a lot. Sadly, I've only started learning modes now, since I didn't really see the point before. I regret it.

I guess what I'm saying is, whether you learn it by ear or by eyes, what you need to do is understand it, and learn how to apply it. As said by others here before, there are a lot of methods to approach this. I wasn't going to reply, but I just don't like Conti's words. Very misleading.

One book that really helped me out is Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick. Very honest words in the book, and approach is pretty awesome (includes several approaches as well!)

To wrap this up, I believe scales and modes are just pieces of the puzzle. They go together with chord tones, chords and harmony, time (groove and feel), intervals, licks, etc. In order to play good music there must be an adequate understanding of all of this, whether learned by ear or by reading, and it's all into account when playing. When driving, you don't really analyze steering, shifting gears, looking at side or rear-view mirrors, stepping on the brakes, stepping on the gas, etc. You don't spend a lot of time thinking about them, you just know them and you do them all while driving - failure to do so could be fatal. But you focus on them at one point when learning how to drive, until they become second-nature. I believe music has to be learned this way as well, like most, if not all, of the other crafts (like martial-arts).

Well, just my honest opinion of course.