The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I used to consider myself a reasonably experienced guitar player (lots of rock and blues playing plus several years' classical study) until I decided to get into playing jazz chord melody and simple passages like the one shown here seemed impossible to me.

    The whole two measures, which is out of an arrangement of Body and Soul, is hard for me to play. But the 1/8th note Db6/9 to Gb7b5 passage in particular is basically impossible.

    I've trying barring across the 3rd fret, tried a partial barre, etc but I can't get all 5 strings to sound clearly. It's usually the F note on the 4th string that unintentionally gets muted by the flesh of the finger on the 5th string.

    I flub my way through this by playing rubato and breaking the chord apart. I'd never be able to play it in time, let along swing.

    Does anyone have any pointers for developing better left hand technique for this style? And for fingering this passage?
    Attached Images Attached Images Why can't I play 5-voice chords? aka How can I improve my technique for chord melody.-img_8034-jpg 

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I wonder if the guitar itself isn't accommodating to this sort of grip.

    Fingerboard radius, string spacing and string height would all seem relevant. Maybe even fret height. I think this may be the sort of thing that leads classical players to prefer an aircraft carrier width neck.

    Meanwhile, I'd suggest having a friend play and hold the Db.

  4. #3

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    It's a function of playing so low on the fretboard, and having a narrow nut width (i.e. not a classical guitar).

    If you can get a little bit of that "F" note, be happy. In other words, if it doesn't fully ring but still "sounds" that's probably good enough.

    It's just an eighth note chord, so it flies by. Close enough for jazz, as they say.

    Just keep playing it, and arch your hand when you play that chord. It'll come or it won't, but it just doesn't matter.
    Last edited by Jazzjourney4Eva; 04-03-2023 at 02:22 AM.

  5. #4

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    If you can't play it, forget it. Get a new arrangement, don't torture yourself.
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-08-2023 at 06:51 AM.

  6. #5

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    This one's pretty good but you might have to contact him to find out how to do it (if you can't work it out yourself).


  7. #6

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    Yeah, here's the thing. It ain't religion. It wasn't written by Sor, Carcassi, etc., so we needn't be so dogmatic about it.

    Joe Pass supposedly said something along the lines of "if the chord is too tough to grip, then grab one that isn't".

    Something like that. Make yourself happy.

  8. #7

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    I agree, done that many times, but you have to know your chords so it sounds kosher. This is in Db, too; not the easiest key. Not the easiest song, either. Putting it down into C probably wouldn't work, it would just make it easier to think about.

    I think if the OP wants to stick to his arrangement then he could just take that small section he posted from one of the videos, the fingering's mostly very clear.

    Where there's a will...

  9. #8

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    I just pulled out the guitar and tried the snippet. It's pretty hard to play this smoothly by just using block chords. I'm sure someone (you) can work that up... and Barry Greene comes to mind as someone with monster chord chops who blasts through big chords like this in his instruction videos.

    In the meantime...

    1. Do you have a recording of someone playing the music as written? Notation often simplifies things, maybe the performance breaks the chords apart too?
    2. Breaking the chords apart interweaving the parts with the bass and melody often sounds great, so why not?
    3. Try playing just the top 4 strings to begin with, who needs the root?
    4. Joe Pass often kept index finger barred, moving this around and changing the other fingers around. This works for your clip as well... but I for one would need to spend some time working that up.
    5. While working on the maximally difficult version, play something simpler in the meantime. We want to play music, right?

    Best of luck :-)

  10. #9

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    Whether or not that chord in that context is necessary is probably a reasonable question BUT ... that's a chord form and fingering that is common and useful and it's one that you should probably put in the effort to get comfortable playing.

    I start with a partial barre on the 3rd fret to give me the 3rd and 6th (I find that using a barre for the lower portion of chords gives me a lot more power with a lot less effort) and either flatten my ring finger for 9th and 5th or I can use my ring and pinky fingers for those.

    It is also with noting that if the 5th is not the lead voice, then it really is not essential and is often omitted.

    Looking at the chart again, one thing you can d to make the entire passage easier is to replace the Em7 in the first chord with an Em9 (x-6-4-6-6-6). That get's your hand in position for the chords that follow and cut down the hand movement a lot.
    Why can't I play 5-voice chords? aka How can I improve my technique for chord melody.-db69-1-jpgWhy can't I play 5-voice chords? aka How can I improve my technique for chord melody.-db69-2-jpg
    Last edited by Jim Soloway; 04-03-2023 at 07:58 AM.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by telejw
    I used to consider myself a reasonably experienced guitar player (lots of rock and blues playing plus several years' classical study) until I decided to get into playing jazz chord melody and simple passages like the one shown here seemed impossible to me.

    The whole two measures, which is out of an arrangement of Body and Soul, is hard for me to play. But the 1/8th note Db6/9 to Gb7b5 passage in particular is basically impossible.
    To be honest I didnt find that passage hard. It is actually quite easy. And I dont consider myself specially trained for this. Here i played.
    nothing - YouTube

    The previous chord is mroe demanding but something affordable. With your index play the 3 3 notes and with the rest of the fingers play the rest of notes. With your middle finger you play the Db. With index you play F and B, just target these 2 , dont barre... index only press these 2 notes.
    Little finger will play 6 4 (first string) while keeping the previous 5 notes chord position.

  12. #11

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    I was able to play it, really without issue-- are you trying to get that Db6/9 chord to ring out while playing the Bb note? So fingering the chord like x21133? Ouch.

    I fingered the Db6/9 x21134, then just shifted the pinky up to get the Bb, Index for the Ab and set up for the next chord.

  13. #12

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    The problem wit playing somebody else's arrangement is that the person who arranged it wasn't considering what your strengths and weaknesses are, what your particular body body dimensions are (i.e. length and shape of fingers, whether you have some physical reason to not be able to do certain things on the fretboard, etc.).

    You can either arrange the tune yourself in whatever key you choose or revoice or use substitute chords for passages that are difficult for you, or even just play a single note melody, or just work on being able to voice that particular chord. As the performer, it is really up to you.

    Tony

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I was able to play it, really without issue-- are you trying to get that Db6/9 chord to ring out while playing the Bb note? So fingering the chord like x21133? Ouch.

    I fingered the Db6/9 x21134, then just shifted the pinky up to get the Bb, Index for the Ab and set up for the next chord.
    I think he's just trying to get the F note to ring clearly, instead of being muted. x21134 is a good fingering, it's just that the 2nd finger partially mutes the F note.

    On another note (pun fully intended) one can simply play the root on the beat and NOT hold it on the offbeat. The whole thing flies by in an instant anyway. Pfffft.

  15. #14
    As others have stated, you don't have to stick to the arrangement 100%. There is no reason to struggle with a fingering for a chord melody when you can just find another one.

    I don't even bother to use someone else's chord melody arrangement. With a fake or real book, arranging chord melodies is a simple task.

    That said, and I'm no great guitar player, I found the fingering to be quite easy. The form for the Db6/9 is really close to a Db9 chord, so it would seem if one can play the later, the former would be easy. I often play this form of the 9th chord with my index finger barring the D, G and B strings. I keep this partial bar formation for numerous other chords that require the index finger on the D or G or B string. If your middle finger is touching the D string, move your wrist lower to give the finger a better angle.

    I don't get why X21133 is difficult.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Grossman

    I don't get why X21133 is difficult.
    Because it's not! I had it in my head that I didn't like barres like that, but after actually trying it, it's no big deal.

    I still hate playing the m7 drop 2 voicing on the first four strings with a 2 string barre though. Not painful, but always feels weird to me.

    As for the F note, I played the chord with, I played it without...its really not a very important note there, imho.

  17. #16
    Thanks everyone. All really helpful responses.

    The X21133 is a little difficult for me on my Telecaster. Not impossible, but slightly hard to do depending on tempo. The 4th string note isn't perfectly clear.

    I found that I can play X21134 workably for this arrangement.

    My first finger forms a 1/2 barre in the 3rd position and then in the 4th position, notated in the image.

    And Jim, going to Em9 is also a great idea.

    Why can't I play 5-voice chords? aka How can I improve my technique for chord melody.-fingering-jpg

  18. #17

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    Now that I sat down and tried to play it:

    Yes, it's hard for me to get that F to ring clearly, although I can do it. The guy who played this had better finger joints, a more appropriate neck or, just possibly, the ability to fret the Db with his left thumb.

    But, it's not really hard to play, if you ignore the tab. Play the Db note with your second finger at the 9th fret. it's 9 8 8 8 10 x. Or if you can grab the low note with your thumb it's even easier.

    Grab the Bb with your pinkie and the Ab with the finger (ring) that already was on it. Then put the pinkie back on the Bb and form the next chord at the same time. x 9 10 9 11 x.

    The first two chords are also playable up there, although they're easy enough played per the tab.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by telejw
    Thanks everyone. All really helpful responses.

    The X21133 is a little difficult for me on my Telecaster. Not impossible, but slightly hard to do depending on tempo. The 4th string note isn't perfectly clear.

    I found that I can play X21134 workably for this arrangement.

    My first finger forms a 1/2 barre in the 3rd position and then in the 4th position, notated in the image.

    And Jim, going to Em9 is also a great idea.

    Why can't I play 5-voice chords? aka How can I improve my technique for chord melody.-fingering-jpg
    Glad it helped. Much of the time, when I struggle with a chord, the problem is not the chord but what comes before it. If a sequence is going to move towards the bottom of the neck, then try to start with a chord that is going to point your hard in that direction.

  20. #19

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    Repeat, if it's too difficult play another version. This thread wouldn't exist if it was easy to play. It's obviously not. Look at that Chris Whiteman version. Do that one. Easy, effective, problem over.


  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Repeat, if it's too difficult play another version. This thread wouldn't exist if it was easy to play. It's obviously not. Look at that Chris Whiteman version. Do that one. Easy, effective, problem over.

    This approach raises an interesting paradox: if I never surrender when I struggle then I remain stuck in my weaknesses but if I always surrender too quickly then I never give myself the opportunity to overcome my weaknesses. It's not always an easy decision.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    This approach raises an interesting paradox: if I never surrender when I struggle then I remain stuck in my weaknesses but if I always surrender too quickly then I never give myself the opportunity to overcome my weaknesses. It's not always an easy decision.
    It's not a question of being slack, lazy or disintegrating at the first hurdle, it's about not banging one's head unnecessarily on a brick wall. Life's too short.

    No one gets medals for being able to twist their fingers into strange positions or doing it faster than anybody else. The people who write these instruction books are just like you and me. The author may have small hands. He may have composed it at the piano. He may never have actually played that arrangement up to tempo in real life without making a mistake. We just don't know.

    If the rest of the tune is playable and sounds nice, why get hung up on one chord or one very small section? Change it so you can play it. No one will know or care. The problem is we lack confidence because we assume the composer must be right and, if we can't do it, it's our fault for being useless. We need to take control and not be driven.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    It's not a question of being slack, lazy or disintegrating at the first hurdle, it's about not banging one's head unnecessarily on a brick wall. Life's too short.

    No one gets medals for being able to twist their fingers into strange positions or doing it faster than anybody else. The people who write these instruction books are just like you and me. The author may have small hands. He may have composed it at the piano. He may never have actually played that arrangement up to tempo in real life without making a mistake. We just don't know.

    If the rest of the tune is playable and sounds nice, why get hung up on one chord or one very small section? Change it so you can play it. No one will know or care. The problem is we lack confidence because we assume the composer must be right and, if we can't do it, it's our fault for being useless. We need to take control and not be driven.
    Your final paragraph is not something that plagues me. I'm perfectly comfortable making those decisions for myself. I have a pretty good idea what my hands are and are not capable of and I don't generally study written arrangements anyway. I get too much happiness out of creating my own. That being said, I will repeat what I wrote: I do think there is a paradox or conflict in deciding when to take the easier softer way. I think sometimes it is exactly as you say: better to find a way that we can play some easier to allow us to be more fluid but there are also times when I think that I should rise to the challenge of something with which I am initially uncomfortable in order to learn something new. The chord in this instance is not a finger twister. It is a very common fingering of a 6/9. Give up on that one to quickly and it is likely that you will run into again and again. If that fingering is a struggle then I think it probably points to a problem that should be overcome.

  24. #23

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    I was finger picking before getting into jazz, so I thumb-over without turning red with shame. I often play that 6/9 grip using my thumb on the fifth and/or sixth string:

    443344 or x43344 or 4x3344 (T for 5/6th string)

    Try it!

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    Your final paragraph is not something that plagues me. I'm perfectly comfortable making those decisions for myself. I have a pretty good idea what my hands are and are not capable of and I don't generally study written arrangements anyway. I get too much happiness out of creating my own. That being said, I will repeat what I wrote: I do think there is a paradox or conflict in deciding when to take the easier softer way. I think sometimes it is exactly as you say: better to find a way that we can play some easier to allow us to be more fluid but there are also times when I think that I should rise to the challenge of something with which I am initially uncomfortable in order to learn something new. The chord in this instance is not a finger twister. It is a very common fingering of a 6/9. Give up on that one to quickly and it is likely that you will run into again and again. If that fingering is a struggle then I think it probably points to a problem that should be overcome.
    Come on, Jim, the 69's no problem, it's a very easy chord. The harder one, the D9#5, comes before that.

    There's no paradox, it's a question of using one's intelligence and experience. If you try to play it, you'll know when it's 'a-bit-tricky-but-perseverance-will-crack-it' and when it's just not going to work. All I'm saying is when it's not going to work, and you know it's not going to work, do something else, that's all.

    As you say, like me you have no qualms about changing an arrangement if it's best it should be changed. That's the confidence of knowledge and experience. But, presumably, this thread is for those who don't have that advantage. My pursuit is to try to tell them there's a better way than sitting there trying to do what is unnatural to them. They may have to look around for it but hopefully sense will prevail. But it's up to them.
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-08-2023 at 06:56 AM.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    This approach raises an interesting paradox: if I never surrender when I struggle then I remain stuck in my weaknesses but if I always surrender too quickly then I never give myself the opportunity to overcome my weaknesses. It's not always an easy decision.
    Well after reading this....I think I have to re-examine my whole life !