-
Hi!
I'm trying to figure out how chord progession work, I'm not great at theory,
and I'm puzzled by the fact minor and major chords are specified in the progression regardless of the scale or mode used, for example ii V I.
If I understand correctly, a ii V I progression for C major would be Dm7 G7 C7M
but if it's on a D dorian mode, do we keep the progression's major and minor attributes ( Em7 AM D),
or keep the D dorian's chords and change it to a ii v i progression (Em7 Am7 Dm7) - and in that case why keep the major and minor indication on the chord progression's name?
Sorry if that sounds very confused
and thank you!
-
04-01-2023 01:47 PM
-
A chord symbol indicates the chord's "quality". The quality of a chord exists independently of key or mode.
A Dmi7 is a Dmi7, period.
-
Not quite. Firstly, major and dominant chords are upper case and minors are lower case. So Dm7 - G7 - CM7 is ii - V - I. But Dm7b5 - G7b9 - Cm7 is ii - V - i. If the key signature isn't specified then it would be iim7b5 - V7b9 - im7.a ii V I progression for C major would be Dm7 G7 C7M
The names of the modes (Dorian, Phrygian, Mixolydian, etc) only refer to the major scale. The modes of the minor scales have their own names. So in D Dorian the chord names are the same as the C major scale.but if it's on a D dorian mode, do we keep the progression's major and minor attributes ( Em7 AM D)
No, the chords of D Dorian are taken from the C major scale and they retain their numbers. So Em7 - Am7 - Dm7 is still iii - vi - ii.keep the D dorian's chords and change it to a ii v i progression (Em7 Am7 Dm7)
But that changes when the progression is taken from the key of D minor. The 251 in D minor (which has one flat) is Em7b5 - A7b9 - Dm7 and that would be written ii - V - i.
The bottom line is that D Dorian is a mode, not a key. If you understand that you'll get it (I hope!).
-
I doubt you'd ever see a ii v i in Dorian... especially not in a jazz tune.
Originally Posted by Mohza
In a pop or rock song, you'll see something like Dm C G Dm as a looping progression. That would be i bVII IV i if you put numbers to it.
In a modal jazz tune you're more likely to find something like a static minor chord or quartal chord or a vamp that pedals off the tonic note with various chords that suggest the mode played over the pedal.
.
-
What is Dorian mode D Dorian chords? You mean the key of D ? That uses 2 alterations? G and C Sharp?
-
In modal playing such as dorian, there aren't chord progressions like in major and minor. There are different voicings within the mode, but they aren't organized with the purpose of forward movement like tonal major and minor. So you wouldn't usually be going 2-5-1 in modal.
-
Exactly. The formula '251' doesn't apply to modes. I should have said that. Well, I did, but not directly.
-
no..Dorian mode is the second mode of the major key..so D Dorian would be in the key of C Major.. Originally Posted by JimmyDunlop
the key of D major has two sharps notes..F# and C#....D E F# G A B C#
-
Yep, that's actually something I learned in the modal deep dive class when I tried open studio pro for a month. I still have to decide if I should commit to it. There are different kinds of classes daily and I'd definitely benefit from it. One of the classes is bebop with the Chris tilfbh guy. The only thing is you're in a zoom call with the class. Not that big a deal, just gotta commit to it. Originally Posted by ragman1
Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 04-02-2023 at 10:40 PM.
-
Yea your trying to use different musical organizations, (theories), to create one simple understanding. You can do this but you need to understand each musical understanding.... and how to combine those understandings and the possible results.
Maj./ Min. Functional Harmony sounded like where your starting from.
Jazz tends to be a mixture of,
1 Maj. / Min. functional Harmony
2 Modal harmonic concepts... modal Harmony. (not from Notra-Dame school or Gregorian chant etc...)
3 Modal Interchange.... an expanded version of traditional "Borrowing" or use of Relative and Parallel principles.
There are more musical organizations but you really can't understand them without understanding the Basic References.
Short version of Modal concepts.... functional organization is expanded with use of "Characteristic Pitch" organizational concepts. Not resolving intervals, resolving CPs . The starting point and then resolving to CPs can also become the organization... so the CP can be used a few ways...
Usually when playing, composing or arranging in a Jazz style.... we use all of the above and more.
With your example.... D-7 G7 Cmaj7 There are many options. generally quit using small case roman numerials
ii V I becomes.... II-7 V7 Ima7. There are a million reasons LOL
.... The rhythmic or structural organization also becomes very important. It's not about one time through the Chord pattern .
During the last 50 years... Dmin Dorian tends to become related to D melodic Min. and Dmin. Aeolian tends to still be related with D Harmonic Min. Which can be as simple as the 6th degree of each Mode.
Dorian has nat 6th and Aeolian has a b6th Or it can be ... what is the V7 chord...
Is it derived through embellishment with use of Harmonic Min. or do you want the altered 5th (b5) which tends to come from Altered note collection from MM .
It's kind of like... it take a long time to become proficient at playing Jazz or in a Jazz style. And that is usually just form developing your technique... chops.
It take a long time to understand what playing jazz is... either from years of trial and error which becomes developing a jazz vocabulary with different options depending on what you hear etc...
or also developing that vocabulary and understanding the possible musical organizations that make vocabulary work.
-
Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Ok thank you for your explanations, that's the thing I hadn't understood, I had no idea modal and minor/major scales worked so differently. Sometimes it's hard to point precisely what you don't understand, especially when swimming in unknown music theory. Originally Posted by ragman1
I'm trying to figure this out from pieces of knowledge I've gathered here and there, and I'm clearly lacking a overall plan to learn about music theory and jazz.
-
Thanks for taking time to explain this to me.
So for example when I go looking for chord progression examples on the internet and I see "ii V I" without any chord specified, it's implied that it's for a major chord? Originally Posted by ragman1
-
Originally Posted by Reg
Thank you, I was clearly mixing things.It's kind of like... it take a long time to become proficient at playing Jazz or in a Jazz style. And that is usually just form developing your technique... chops.
It take a long time to understand what playing jazz is... either from years of trial and error which becomes developing a jazz vocabulary with different options depending on what you hear etc...
or also developing that vocabulary and understanding the possible musical organizations that make vocabulary work.
I didn't understand the whole reply but I'll come back to it when I know a bit more and I'm sure I'll be able to appreciate i at its full extent.
-
You are asking a couple of things, but one of them is about the "registration" of the Roman numerals - they look like they might imply that "I" or "i" is the root of the key chord or tonic of the key scale. That is true with respect to the progression of a whole song, and adjustment for modulation of the key for the B part of a song form, or a latter A part of the tune (so all these are a primary registration of the assignment to I or i).
However, it is also true that a brief section of the progression may be considered a "local tone center" so the numeral registration is shifted to make its analysis the same as similar occurrences elsewhere. The local tone center is a way of organizing things with respect to a target, and uses the change in registration to temporarily reassign a local key for simplification of labeling the numerals for the chord changes approaching the target. The target is re-registered as the I or i just long enough to hit it, for example a ii-V-i in which that "ii" is really a iii with respect to the progression key. So a 251 from the iii to the ii. Then there may be another 251 from the ii to the i. This allows the first one to be locally and analytically the same as the second one.
You can think of the song as having a progression, but offering a floating zoom-in to take a closer look at the common characteristic jazz changes. The zoom-in may re-register Roman numeral assignments locally with respect to the local target of the changes so that the target is now the I or i and the approaching chords take their numerals from that, just long enough until the target is achieved. In the example above, the first one sees the progression's ii as its i, then in the second one that first one's "i" is changed to the second one's ii... much easier to see than say.
So what happens in a modal song or modal section of a song like "So What?" where you alternate long sections of Dm7 and Ebm7? Within those sections, the key / root / tonic stays the same without functional changes, but you can "push and pull" the harmony in various ways - maybe playing D minor pentatonic or D Dorian, but then "moving" the harmony without displacing the feet of "D" by incorporating Ab augmented, Ab diminished whole-half, G Lydian Dominant, etc. Doing that gives you some other harmonic dimensions of expression that stretch or reshape that sense of "D something sound" without breaking it loose to something else (as would a functional change).
So in one sense, without functional changes, the modal tune or section does not need the Roman numerals that are used for that. In another sense, it would be misleading to try to assign them to the harmonies mentioned above, because they aren't pushing root movement, only the various senses of "D something sound". Of course, conceptually you might discover that certain series of these pushy harmonies have certain interesting "movement" sounds (especially across when the song switches) and maybe hear those as "meta-pseudo-progression-like". Maybe there is a correct term for that already...?
-
Yes. The I at the end is the major chord. If it were i it would be minor. Majors and dominants are upper case, minors are lower. So Originally Posted by Mohza
ii V I is minor, dominant, major.
ii V i is minor, dominant, minor.
But don't forget that's all those symbols mean. It won't tell you the key or what type of minor, dominant or major chords they are. You should always relate what you see to its context.
By the way, when actual numbers are used they can refer to both major and minor. '251' could mean either a major or minor cadence depending on the context. Context is always extremely important.
-
That was right under my nose, sorry for the dumb question. Originally Posted by ragman1
I have to work on keys so I understand better how they work and how to use them, now I know what to look for.
I have one last question, chord progressions give no indications on the number of bars that each chord should be played right?
Is there a default / standard structure that applies to it (to an extent) when no further indication is given, or it's just very flexible and depend on the context?
Thanks!
-
That's very interesting, I understand a bit more about how modes and scales work, but it's still over my capacities for now. Originally Posted by pauln
I should work in order to understand how keys and functional harmony work first I think, and think about modes later.
Thanks for taking the time to explaining all this.
-
No, wrong :-) Originally Posted by Mohza
On a lead sheet there's a chord symbol at the beginning of each bar. If it's meant to last more than one bar there'll be nothing till the next symbol. Sometimes there'll be a repeat sign like this:
If there are two chords to a bar there will be two symbols, half a bar each. Sometimes there'll be one symbol for the first two beats then two different symbols for the next two. Sometimes odd beats are written with a slash line.
| C / / G7 |
There are examples of all those symbols here:
When progressions are written out the bars are divided like this. Each chord has two beats unless, obviously, the tune is in 3/4 or some other time.
| C Am | Dm G7 | C C7 | F Fm |
What I've said above is the default, if you like. Most music is written that way. However, with some modern stuff it can vary. Composers may have their own ways of indicating what they want. In that case it would be a question of context and using one's sense.Is there a default / standard structure that applies to it (to an extent) when no further indication is given, or it's just very flexible and depend on the context?
-
Ok I get it for the lead sheets, thanks for the explanation. Originally Posted by ragman1
No, wrong :-)
On a lead sheet there's a chord symbol at the beginning of each bar. If it's meant to last more than one bar there'll be nothing till the next symbol. Sometimes there'll be a repeat sign like this:
If there are two chords to a bar there will be two symbols, half a bar each. Sometimes there'll be one symbol for the first two beats then two different symbols for the next two. Sometimes odd beats are written with a slash line.
But when it's just written "ii V I" without more detail or context, does it imply for example that each chord is 1 bar long? Or are there multiple possibilities?
Because I guess it can sound quite differently if you make one chord last twice as long as another.
-
It doesn't really imply anything, just that the chords are the ii, V and I. I suppose generally that would mean one bar each but there are different variations like Originally Posted by Mohza
| ii V | I |
Also sequences of ii V's in one bar or two bars without resolving to their I's are common. You should really check out various lead sheets to see how chords are used in various ways.
-
If something is written without more detail or context, my recommendation is not to imply anything. Instead, find another version where the progression is in context (e.g. as part of a song), or create your own context (application). Originally Posted by Mohza
Reply With Quote
Julian Lage Trio, Amsterdam, April 17 2024
Today, 02:19 AM in The Players