Metre.. metrum missing - student.

[emanresu]

Hey!

I have a student that so far has been mostly self-taught.
He has good voice and good intonation. Understands, sings and plays(guitar) syncopated rhythm nicely. Not at professional level but completely workable.
Has decent "pulse" feel - keeps the time.
But has almost no sense of the metre - always hesitates when he should start to sing or start to play.

So far we've done counting "1 2 3 4" when playing something. Tapping on 2 and 4 when singing (that has helped a bit).
Sing the melody while playing a chord simply on 1 - so hard for him.
.. what else. Counting "1 2 3 4" while listening some tricky songs.
Tapping "1 2 3 4" with left hand, tapping the rhythm of choice with the other - insanely hard.
Counting loudly the metre beats on the rests when singing a melody. Has helped.
But it hasn't been enough.

So. Good understanding of rhythms (with syncopation) and able to sing and play them, decent pulse, no meter.

What else to try? I'm running out of ideas here.

If you can solve this.. know that you helped someone a lot!

Thanks in advance.

[AllanAllen]

Here’s what worked for me.


Get a metronome on 2 and 4. Have the student strum a blues.

Then have them play a simple melody over the 2,4 metronome. (C Jam Blues comes to mind).

go slow, painfully slow for you is probably too fast for them. It sounds like they are missing fundamental skills so you have to correct a lifetime of bad habits and this means slow “boring” practice.

That’s what I tell myself anyway.

[emanresu]

The problem does seem simple but it is as described:
good understanding of rhythm, fine pulse. No meter. Keep that in mind.

We have already done metronome. On 1, 3. On 2, 4.

[mr. beaumont]

Hey!

Has decent "pulse" feel - keeps the time.
But has almost no sense of the metre - always hesitates when he should start to sing or start to play.


Thanks in advance.

The part I quoted was interesting to me...is there sort of an anxiety thing at work here? Sounds like once they are playing, time isn't an issue...it's keeping time when they are not playing?

Try having them play along with a tune that has an intro they don't play on. It has to be at least 2 bars...give them a clear "ONE" on the second bar, then have them quietly brush the muted strings (or one string) on the guitar until their part comes in. See if that helps any...

Sometimes NOT playing can be very nerve-wracking.

[emanresu]

The part I quoted was interesting to me...is there sort of an anxiety thing at work here? Sounds like once they are playing, time isn't an issue...it's keeping time when they are not playing?

He is anxious, yes. Whenever he readies his aim for the start of the next phrase, he misses it. Not kidding, whenever he aims for the timing, he misses. Every single time.

[AllanAllen]

How much Have you done the metronome on 2 and 4? There are plenty of exercises to get past this. Sit out a bar then play a bar. Sit out two bars play two. If coming in is a problem, just endlessly drill coming in.

This is foundational stuff, it’s tedious to go back and learn it.

[emanresu]

Metronome on 2 & 4 yes.
And him tapping on 2 & 4 while singing helped.

But it hasn't been enough.

[AllanAllen]

You aren’t saying if you did it once and never went back or if you reviewed and revised after a week. Which is an important detail. I’m under the impression you are doing an exercise once then moving on.

[emanresu]

So what's the best excercise to do weekly?

edit: and what would be the best home assignment?

[emanresu]

You aren’t saying if you did it once and never went back or if you reviewed and revised after a week. Which is an important detail. I’m under the impression you are doing an exercise once then moving on.

The issue here is that I don't have a good idea what to do weekly. Never seen that particular problem.
This is new to me.


edit: the current routine for 2 months has been that we pick a song that is required(for his band) and do bunch of excercises with it. Some of them new, yes. But we go over a few of them during the session.

[Jonah]

From ny experience it is not about meter.
It is about hearing the musical contents and form - relation of harmony and melody... breath.

I had this issue with my little son when he began to play (which was surprising for me because he is very musical), so we focused mainly on hearing how harmony changes, how it creates some integral section of the form and how melody represents this harmonic breath.
Mainly I did it through highlighting resolutions/tensions of functions and showing cadences - I did not use the terminology just tried to make his ear catch the process.

In my opinion trying to count can be misleading in this situation. Yes, jazz and pop tunes have usually regular metric patterns but still it may cause the situation when he focuses on regular pulse behind music too much - and it will take later more time to make him feel free and loose while performing melody and harmony...
one should not count, one should hear the form... breath, 'semantic meter' - some feel that is created by the whole musical composition with all elements working together. It is not necessarily that mathematically regular as 4/4 or 3/4 but it has its own integrity and logics.

I sould say good music is often about breaking the regularity of meter but still having it felt behind as reference.

But I cannot say for sure of course for exery particular case without getting in touch with particular person.

[ragman1]

I almost always never start on the 1. It's always an 8th in, or even later. Does he think he's got to start on the 1? And hesitates because his sense of rhythm says wait, syncopate it?

Or is he uncertain about what notes to play over the chord?

Or has he got some idea about imitating a certain kind of phrasing that's making him hesitate?

Why don't you just ask him? Don't just find ways to correct it, it might not need correcting. Find out what's going on in his mind first

[emanresu]

He starts singing at the wrong beat of the measure. Sings the phrase correctly, just that on the wrong beat. And he actually knows when this happens almost instantly.
If it was just playing something on the guitar wrong, thats quite common and I wouldn't worry too much. Gets better over time... but singing. This is the first time to withness such thing.

[RJVB]

Does this only happen with singing or also when playing the same melody on guitar?

Getting the entry wrong does sound familiar to me. If anxiety is involved there is a chance that all your exercising has also increased his fear of getting it wrong - probably every (classical) music student knows that over-practising a passage can make you develop a "fixation" on it. I'm still susceptible to get that kind of thing myself, where every time I try to just play a piece I do get it wrong because of anticipation (or if I do get it right I derail just afterwards because of the surprise). The only way to get past that is to leave the piece alone for a while (going on holidays can work miracles here!).

Have you tried playing along with him, or as a variant, let him play director and give *you* the departure signal? Both should address anxiety issues and the latter will oblige him to focus on the accompaniment (which I assume there is). Letting him sing the bass line and transition to his actual part is something you probably already did?

[ragman1]

He starts singing at the wrong beat of the measure. Sings the phrase correctly, just that on the wrong beat. And he actually knows when this happens almost instantly.

Mmm... I don't know then. You could count for him and wave your finger at him when the right beat happens. Better than nothing. He will have a clear cue.

But it is odd, I agree.

[emanresu]

Does this only happen with singing or also when playing the same melody on guitar?

Last time we took "smells like teen spirit", learned the melody also on guitar. Played together, got it to match.

But I like the other suggestions you had there. Will try, thanks!

[Jonah]

He starts singing at the wrong beat of the measure. Sings the phrase correctly, just that on the wrong beat. And he actually knows when this happens almost instantly.
If it was just playing something on the guitar wrong, thats quite common and I wouldn't worry too much. Gets better over time... but singing. This is the first time to withness such thing.

very familiar with that...my sone tried to start earlier especially with chorus repeat
I used Georgia on My Mind and Over The Rainbow (uke versions)... because my kids liked it.

And we focused on connection between the 1st and 2nd chorosus -- no counting, I tried to show how the harmony goes into the tonic chord.
But these to songs have melody on beat of the 1st bar.
We used Stand By Me to practice melody with 'pick up'

and also there are tricky tunes like 'My One And Only love' when the beginning sound like it is a long 'pick up' but in reference to harmony and form it is not.

[Jimmy blue note]

Metronome on 2 and 4 is a great feel thing. Metronome on all quarters is a good confidence and assurance thing. Metronome on 1 and 3 is a good awareness thing.
Open up your ideas about how a metronome is used. The more approaches you address, the more likely it is that you may hit upon the block that's preventing your student from feeling integrated with the guitar.
The way to the brain through the hands is different from the way to the brain through the voice. Find the weakness first by opening up all possibilities (quarter note timer, then eighth notes can find the feel of flow), then 2 and 4 can make more sense.
I believe that more options just make for a more diverse ear and a stronger time feel player.

Have you listened to recordings in a lesson and found or tapped the beat out? Have you worked on vocalization exercises (scat patterns) and brought them over to the guitar? These are just a few of the things that can strengthen the weakness of hand initiated time by drawing on the strength.
It may be that the hands lack the confidence to take the initiative because they've never done it before.

Find success on a basic level and build up from there.

That's what I work on with my students anyway,
Good luck!

[RJVB]

Played together, got it to match.

And did he manage on his own afterwards? Or if you dropped out at the crucial moment, unannounced? If those work he'll have the beginnings of addressing his anxiety.

Meanwhile, you mention that this is for band requirements. I understand he's not a pro, so -if the use of the term isn't simply your way of putting it here- one thing to set straight with him (and possibly the other band members) is that "requirement" is too strong a concept for anything you do for fun. And also that there is no shame in agreeing that one of the others (the drummer, or bandleader) gives him a trigger. He seems to have all the prerequisites for being able to do without one so I'd expect that he'll outgrow the need for one (and also that this will be evident for him and the trigger person).

Lastly: he sings. It could be very beneficial for him to join a choir that has a (good...) conductor and does interesting repertoire.

[emanresu]

Open up your ideas about how a metronome is used.

Good luck!

Thanks, really need it this time!

We used my dropout metronome that randomly forgets to play a tick. And thanks to that problem I started to improve the metronome app

[emanresu]

I think we'll try singing a bunch of unfamiliar tunes next time. It might do some good. Just the musical experience from variety.
Currently he focuses on a few tunes and gets easily frustrated when fails too much..

So far, big thanks to everyone - a lot to think about.

[emanresu]

Another thought comes to mind. Maybe send him to the drum lessons for a month. Like an exchange student...Could be helpful.

[Dave70]

Is the guy is starting late because he's taking an in-breath on the beat instead of before the beat?

[Reg]

Yea... you need to expand your approach of rhythm with subdivision and rhythmic patterns that that have musical organization over longer periods of time or space. Start with simple call and answer concepts.

Metronomes are over rated. Don't get me wrong, pulse is required... but many great players don't have the best pulse. Part of playing is having a Live pulse.... the point is how the Pulse is implied.

Rhythmic patterns without harmony or melodic content should be part of teaching and learning how to play music.

[Woody Sound]

Reminds me of stuttering. Many stutterers don't stutter at all when reading.