Metre.. metrum missing - student.

[emanresu]

Not gonna start another thread but got even more interesting student.
When doing a bit of ear training, the most basic, I only played 2 notes and asked if the 2nd note went higher
or lower. His guesses were pretty much random. Then asked him to sing those notes, he very often cant sing the pitches
correctly but also, sometimes does.. So not a hopeless case. But! he 100% sings in the right direction.
Yet, here's the interesting part. He also always tells the direction wrong. 100%.
I asked him to not tell me, but sing and show with the hand if it goes higher or lower.
100% wrong.. I am not kidding! 100%.
We did about 20 attempts. Every single time he sung the right direction but showed it going the wrong way.

Then, just for fun, I asked that he would sing again but also show with the hand the opposite way how the pitches seemed. And he got it right then.
Yeah. Very curious.

[RJVB]

Every single time he sung the right direction but showed it going the wrong way.

Then, just for fun, I asked that he would sing again but also show with the hand the opposite way how the pitches seemed. And he got it right then.
Yeah. Very curious.

I have former colleagues who'd be very interested because of his consistency. I don't know if that aspect fits with dyslexia but that's one of the 1st things that comes to mind.

What also comes to mind is how he distinguishes questions from affirmation in spoken language. Maybe that's an idea you can play with; first with simple sentences inflected either as a question or as an affirmation. Supposing he gets that right, use musical phrases with those same inflections and see how he does with those.

[ragman1]

So who are these weird students? How old are they? Have they ever done music before? Whose idea was it to take lessons? Are they all quite 'normal' or are they, um, disadvantaged in some way?

[Christian Miller]

So who are these weird students? How old are they? Have they ever done music before? Whose idea was it to take lessons? Are they all quite 'normal' or are they, um, disadvantaged in some way?

How dare these people expect me to help them do music as if I was some sort of teacher or something!

[RJVB]

How dare these people expect me to help them do music as if I was some sort of teacher or something!

Note to self: remember not to ask Christian.

I'd ask if that reassures you but I'd be breaking my intentions

[ragman1]

I'm not insulting these students. Rather the point is that, were we talking about writing and letters, they'd be displaying symptoms of dyslexia. At least, that's the way it appears to me.

[Reg]

I thought we were discussing why many musicians have lousy rhythm. They are rhythm followers as compared to rhythm leaders. Kind of like whether your Mirroring or are in Unison with the timing.

Again... being able to subdivide yada yada

[emanresu]

I have former colleagues who'd be very interested because of his consistency. I don't know if that aspect fits with dyslexia but that's one of the 1st things that comes to mind.

What also comes to mind is how he distinguishes questions from affirmation in spoken language. Maybe that's an idea you can play with; first with simple sentences inflected either as a question or as an affirmation. Supposing he gets that right, use musical phrases with those same inflections and see how he does with those.

This worked instantly. I asked him to ask "do you have bread?" and "but milk?", And then asked to say "stop messing around".. or something.
He got the difference of the pitch changing, and the direction. Next he started to guess rightly when played two notes instead.

I talked with another teacher in my school. She said that very young kids might not yet know the difference between "up" or "down", "before" or "after", etc. Well, they might KNOW it but it's not yet embedded in the.. common sense logic or something.
So, it's not uncommon they mess up those simple words.. completely normal kid then. She also said that perhaps the parents don't communicate with them enough.

A bit of derail there, sorry. But not worth a new thread, I though.

[ragman1]

So there's no misunderstanding, I'm not talking about very young children. Obviously they're not going to be able to hit specific pitches (or specific words) on demand. As they get older, they might. And girls may be better at it than boys because they develop differently.

So emaresu, again, how old are these students? Just so we can be clear what we're dealing with here.

[emanresu]

The one on OP is about 16 something. Self-learned.
The derail was about a 6 or 7 years old.

edit: I thought I had stumbled on something strange there. But it was not. All cool. All normal.

[emanresu]

But after talking with another teacher who said much is missing from the parents nowadays.
One day, a snowy day, we arrived to the school at the same time with a student.
I asked him to clean the boots from the snow before entering the building.
He banged his feet 2 times, he took it very seriously. But didnt scrape... hm.
And he was 10. This was a strange thing to witness.

[ragman1]

The one on OP is about 16 something. Self-learned.
The derail was about a 6 or 7 years old.

edit: I thought I had stumbled on something strange there. But it was not. All cool. All normal.

Thanks. I taught at a school for some time. At 16 they could do most things. A 16 year-old could certainly sing but didn't because he was trying to be like his guitar hero-of-the-moment (I forget who right now).

A 7 year-old would probably not be able to hit pitches on demand for very long. Like girls, they mostly wanted fun, fun, fun.

But it never stopped any of them putting on a very nice end-of-term concert when it came to it.

[Christian Miller]

The worse thing you can do for someone’s singing technique incidentally is teach them that there are high notes and low notes

[emanresu]

What?

[RJVB]

This worked instantly.

You're welcome O:-)

Indeed, you should inform us about the age of these pupils... what you described is much less unheard of in kids. It takes a while before they develop musical sensitivities, in most at least. I'm thinking that's got something to do with seeing music as an abstract form of language - I still remember how hard it was for me to get my head around "abstract calculations" (i.e. with variables rather than actual numbers).

[Christian Miller]

What?

something my old singing teacher (god rest his soul) told me once. Made me laugh.

thinking the note is high will cause you to do all the wrong things physically. You actually need to to feel the note in a completely different way.

[rpjazzguitar]

Drum machine. 4/4. Each beat has its own sound. Can be done for free with Musescore.

Put a giant gong sound on beat 1. "Play starting with the gong".

Some of this is humor.

[emanresu]

Drum machine. 4/4. Each beat has its own sound.

Yeah. I'm actually making such machine right now.
Dropout Metronome

[Reg]

At some point you need to get past thinking or feeling in single bars. I'm not sure you can make students... pulse machines. Start working with 2 bar figures , then 4 etc. And start with single note or chord. Use rhythmic accents to create patterns that repeat.

Then maybe later they will develop better pulse... Maybe Ricks gong with patterns

[emanresu]

Maybe Ricks gong with patterns

Whats that?

[Reg]

Whats that?

Somewhat a Joke... but with reference to two bar Montuno figures. Or any swing two bar patterns etc.
here's example of 2 bar figure ... played 2xs #1
#2 is a 4 bar rhythmic figure expanded to 4 bar figure
#3 is the 4 bar figure expanded to 8 bar figure

There are many examples in percussion books, probably free on line.