-
I don't think this is the Clayton Hamilton band Reg...they don't even have a piano player yet.
Originally Posted by Reg
Sounds very much like a 30's-40's dance type group they're trying to put together. My guess is that guitar part is the bastardization of a piano part and the horns smushed together.
You know the pro shit, for sure, but I work in a high school, and I've seen guitar charts like this a million times
(bad public music education joke)
-
01-24-2023 02:25 PM
-
It's pretty common to see a passage going around the cycle of fifths towards a tonic ... with extensions (5ths and 9ths, some 13ths, but not sus) on every chord. Typically,the thirds and sevenths create a line you can play on the D and G strings, two notes at a time, moving chromatically. Originally Posted by Reg
The bass player gets the root. The horns get the extensions. The guitar player can chunk along Freddie Green style with 3rds and 7ths and it won't conflict with the altered fifths and ninths. So, I'm not clear where the mud is created. Reg, what is the problem with playing 3rds and 7ths?? (I'm not arguing -- Reg is an awesome guitarist and a very knowledgable musician -- and I'm trying to learn something).
Of course, if you can play all the extensions as written it usually sounds really good. But, often enough, in the situtations I play in, I've never seen the chart before, the tempo is fast and the extensions are written in a really small font.
Going beyond the OP, I'd add something else. Typically the swing charts have 4 quarter note slash marks per bar. You can play this Freddie Greene style, chunking away. If you nail the rhythmic aspect of that style, it can sound great. It also helps keep out of the pianist's way, since the piano isn't going to be doing that.
But, you don't have to play 4 quarters to the bar, especially if there's no piano. The leader may be perfectly happy with some other kind of comping that feels and sounds good. That's particularly true during solos, even with horn backgrounds (be careful not to conflict). You play your best jazz comping. You can even vary it based on the arrangement. Freddie here, not-Freddie there. It's also more fun, I think, to vary it, unless maybe you've really mastered Freddie Greene's style, with all the movement.
-
yeah I’m going to take a guess from your description and assume this is kind of Neil Hefti/second testament Basie stuff? Originally Posted by pdawg
that’s more 50s but it has a fair amount in common with the earlier stuff guitar wise and as far as I can tell it’s by far the most commonly played Big Band rep (along with maybe Buddy Rich and Maynard Ferguson stuff.) My band also plays some Ellington and Thad Jones.
(If it is more pre war swing stuff, a lot of these points stand although the rep may be a bit less ‘mainstream’ for blowing bands.)
So I play a lot of this style of stuff. A lot of the time what you are looking at is the horn arrangement put somewhat into the guitar part - this means the parts can be really quite busy with passing chords that can go by pretty fast. First thing to know is not all of this stuff is essential.
There are a lot of things you can catch - hits, stabs and voice leading - but the main thing in this repertoire is to play solid straight four Freddie Green style that will mostly be heard when the ‘smoke clears’ (so piano solos and so on). This is also a style that works well with the piano. Freer comping styles require a bit more coordination and negotiation.
So to answer your qs
1) yes - a lot of the time you are looking a blues or something. It’s helpful to be able to see and hear beyond the chart; if you can recognise the tune is basically a twelve bar in G or something that helps take the pressure off to nail everything. Just default to a blues and play as much as you can. Recognise ii V Is that are disguised and so on. Exposure. It gets easier.
2) no I don’t think so. Most reading stuff is about exposure. The more you do it, and so on. And obviously you’ll learn the pad, esp the popular numbers. If you play a Basie pad after a while you are going to learn Shiny Stockings by heart basically after a few of these right?
3) tbh being asked to turn up is always better. Traditional big band guitar is pretty subtle. Just keep going. I practice reading a lot; any charts I can find. While I may not be often expected to sight read Brecker brothers tunes, practicing reading that stuff (however slowly or badly) adds ‘headroom’
4) That’s not the culture of these bands. It’s a reading world. But a lot of bands will have an overlap with repertoire; do it enough and you’ll see a lot of the same charts come up again and again. (That is for ‘blowing bands’)Last edited by Christian Miller; 01-24-2023 at 04:46 PM.
-
This guy lays it down about the Freddie green style… he’s kind of an authority on it (Lincoln centre, Julliard etc)
-
I would also recommend the book from Charlton Johnson 'Swing and Big Band Guitar'. This book has a separate chapter for quick access to rhythm guitar in a BB.
That helped me a lot when I got started playing in a bigband. Especially the chart with the 3 note voicings and their multiple functionality.
-
It can take some time to get use to reading BB charts.
The first time I tried out for the guitar chair of the college big band I didn't get past the audition. I took lessons with a good teacher, Bill Thrasher btw, and got in the big band the next year. By the second year in the band, I started to get comfortable reading the charts. This was around 1980, the auditions were heavily weighted on sight reading both single note lines and chord symbols.
We had a concert book that was more difficult to read, which included modern tunes like Spain by Chick Corea, but we were able to rehearse and work things out at home etc. (Edit: Spain was modern at the time, but being more than 40 years ago, maybe not so much anymore).
We had a "dance book" which wasn't rehearsed and was sometimes played/read for the first time at a gig. These tunes were easier and were mostly in the style of Freddie Green for the guitar chair.
Like I said, it took me some time to get comfortable.
Now, at 65 years old, it would take me some work to get back up to speed. Not sure I'd relish putting the work in though.
-
Man... we're not HS students. Sounded like it's a working band and even if it was a HS or Collage band... or ? The point shouldn't be to not play or not be heard.
It's a Blues... Is the chart an "A" "B" version of head. The head is usually just 2x's through a 12 bar blues form. The melody is different on "B". (sometimes there's a "C" section which becomes ABAC).
RP... sorry 3rds and 7th are cool etc... but personally they suck. They are an effect that gets old quick. The chord pattern the OP seems to be having difficulty with ...
Bb13 Eb9#11 Ab13 Db9#11 / D+7#9 G+7#9 C7#9 F7
Is just a chord pattern that either supports the long sustain on the first 2 bars of the "A"melody... (the call)
before the (answer) the descending bluesy line.
Or it could be for creating more bluesy movement under the 2nd melody of "B" which might be more of a tension release thing.... both arrangement possibilities are cool and the approach for organizing the FORM work.
But the point of either is not to be subtle....
Think like Bb13 A7b13 Ab13 G7b13 / Ab13 G7b13 Gb13 F7 I would probable have made the F7 ...F7b13#9
which would keep the Bluesy harmony getting back to the Bb7, the I7 chord.
Anyway the 3rd and 7th approach would create too much mud with the chord pattern..... the 3rd and 7ths are probably already played in each horn section etc...
You can still keep time implied rhythmically and actually play harmonically. I do get it... it's not easy, but it's also not that hard. The advantage of playing guitar is how short and percussive we can play.... we don't get thick like the piano. Anyway here's a version which is cool... it's an AAB version with Joey Defrancesco and Mark Whitfield
-
You must have read the OP differently than me then...I saw that they didn't even have a piano player yet and that they hired a guy who has never done this before...to me it sounded like some guys trying to get something off the ground. Originally Posted by Reg
I also still think the Freddie Green stuff sounds great, but you can't do it on a loud electric guitar with a typical jazz tone--I agree with you, that does get muddy.
-
I've been playing big band since 1975 when my high school won the New York State championship. We played "Central Park North" and "The Magic Flea" among others, pretty advanced stuff for high school. I am currently playing in a local "all star" modern big band. The issue of voicings is pretty advanced, and it sounds like you're just getting your teeth wet, and it has been covered pretty well here already, so I'll leave that be.
As far as all those chords and passing chords, the person who posted that it's better to leave something out than clam it is absolutely correct. Most often the others are not paying attention to the guitar, until you lay a fart. You definitely can leave out some of those quick passing chords if they are giving you trouble grabbing them. But DO NOT let the previous chord sustain into the one you are leaving out. If you have 4 difficult changes per measure, and you are leaving out 2 or 4, keep 1 and 3 short, treating 2 and 4 almost like a rest. Nobody will notice with everything else going on in the band. Get used to faking (or subbing). And I mean that in a good way. If something is giving you trouble but you can play something that matches and makes sense, go for it. That takes years to become second nature.
BTW, it sounds like you take the music home with you? You are very lucky. In my band none of the music is allowed to go out. Every week it's sight reading. Sometimes I'll take pictures of difficult passages with my phone. And we don't even get advanced SOLO warnings. We'll come to the bridge and he'll suddenly yell "Guitar! Take it."
Last edited by Woody Sound; 01-25-2023 at 03:46 PM.
-
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll order that book. Originally Posted by bluenote61
This band isn't the big leagues. They perform about 12 times a year at small casual venues. I was actually asked to sub for the regular guitarist who had to miss several months. He's coming back soon and I'm hoping to learn a lot from him, sort of an understudy. I'll still go to rehearsals and sub for him when needed.
-
In one of the bigbands I'm in we are playing a lot of Basie stuff. Some of the charts have the subtitle that they are transcribed from original recordings. These transcribed charts have often written out highly sophisticated chords and extensions when in one bar chord changes occur on every beat. I'm always thinking 'Freddie would never have played it this way'.
I take such charts with me home and try to understand what the transcriber wants me to say with those changes. Most of the time it takes a while trying different voicings and then I see that there is e.g. a chromatic movement or similar on the d string enclosed in the voicings. And that it's what I'll play in these passages and thinking that could be the way Freddie would have played it.
I suppose those transcribers did not trust their ears that there is only one string played on a six string guitar.
-
I guess I have to listen more carefully. Reg and Jeff (two of my favorite players on here) hear something differently than I do.
I find that playing 3rd and 7ths in a swing tune may be boring if you're not swinging hard enough, but I don't hear harmonic mud. And, I don't understand why it would make mud because the horns have the same notes.
The problem with 3rds and 7ths is that they don't create much movement. Freddie was moving all the time -- and it's the movement that makes the music propulsive, or so it seems to me. Or is that what you mean by mud?
What I've noticed is that harmonic mud is made when I play the incorrect extensions. Or, the bass and guitar get into the same octave for too long. Or the pianist is hardly leaving any space for the guitarist to do anything. Or somebody juking the rhythm enough that it's hard to complement. Or, there's a quick one beat transition chord which I miss.
All that said, the OP was struggling with the bars that have a chord every quarter note. Being able to play 3rds and 7ths seems foundational to me. It may not be art, but it's not clams either. I think it's important to be able to see the half step movement of those notes.
But, for the music to swing, well here's a way to think about it. Suppose the bassist played only roots. 4 identical notes in a one chord per bar situation. G G G G, C C C C. Like that. Wouldn't sound very good would it? If the guitar plays the same pair of notes 4 times per bar, it's a similar problem. Not enough movement.
As far a guitar tone goes, Freddie Greene could have played a Stratocaster later in his career, but he didn't. That sound is classically archtop. It's hard to get it to pop properly on a solid body. But, some great players have played big band music on Strat style (Lorne Lofsky) or a Tele (Bob Bain). I find that my Comins GCS-1 doesn't work all that well, although it does work - better when there's no piano. My Yamaha Pacifica cheapie sounds thinner and therefore works better for that kind of rhythm guitar, but the single note tone is too thin for comfort in soloing.
-
Yea... Woody... sounds great.
I'm not trying to say to much... but the melody is spelled out with those changes, and...I know again most aren't into this style of playing ... but you could just actually just play the melody figure on top of those chords and it might feel and sound better, the melody and rhythmic feel is built right in..The chords will spell and and lay fairly easily on guitar. Something like..below with melody and rhythmic feel
X X 6 7 8 6 Bb13
X X 5 6 6 9 Eb9#11
X X 4 5 6 6 Ab13
X X 3 4 4 3 Db9#11
X 4 X 4 6 X "
X 5 4 5 6 6 ...... D+7#11
X (10) 9 10 11 9 G+7#9
(8) X 8 8 11 X ... C7#9
X 8 7 8 8 X ........F9
X 6 7 7 6 X ........F13
Or you could just play other voicings and make sure you compliment the melody, melodically and rhythmically.
It does sound really cool and would work great with horn sections, you would make lead line (the melody) stand out.... That's how I might play it... Big band charts become like lead sheets... you can expand and make the parts better...in the same direction arrangement is implying LOL. A great rhythm section makes the band happen.
It does take chops, comping charts. But it's really fun type of gig.
-
hey Rick... yea there are many forms of MUD...LOL. what generally happens is when you get a lot of players playing the same notes... the notes get thick, muddy... the intonation thing. With Blues, your playing mainly tri-tones with step wise motion... I know not always, but it implied. Some 5th's etc... all thick and (muddy).
The feel or rhythmic thing can help... LOL you know me... I'm a rhythmic or groove machine... drummers love me.
But we should also be rhythmic harmonically, just like with you think and were bringing up about movement.
Anyway, you always cover well... we're playing at OVBW again this sunday... feel free to sit in.
-
Of you avoid the same timbre, 3rds and 7ths don't need to be muddy. Originally Posted by Reg
-
I've got a gig in Pt Richmond at 5:30, so I might be able to make the first set. Thanks for the invite. Originally Posted by Reg
-
So, you're looking at, say, a Bb7 (or a Bb7 with some extensions) in a big band swing chart. The horns are in. Originally Posted by Reg
Whatever notes you pick, somebody else is going to playing them, right?
So, it seems to me that you pick the octave that will sound best, pick a guitar tone that isn't too thick, pick some notes that will work (with that harmonic-rhythmic-movement) and don't play legato. Keep it ... hmm, I don't have a word for it, sharp? propulsive?
That is, you find ways to avoid a muddy sound. 3rds and 7ths on the D and G strings around the 5th fret may work, or may turn out to be in the wrong octave for the music -- too close to the bass or piano, or even some horns. It's easy to play them too legato and they don't lend themselves to harmonic rhythm unless they're moving every beat or something like that. Sometimes it's better to play them on the G and B strings. And, sometimes there are better things to do.
All this is easier when you've heard the arrangement before. In some big band situations that isn't usually the case.
But, for the OP of this thread, mastering the 3rd and 7th thing would be a good idea because it's a safety net when you can't play exactly what's written.
-
That's precisely the reason for the guitar to avoid playing extensions beyond a 7th. The horns will define the overall chord structure and maintain the flow of harmony. The guitar and the bass provide the framework on which that happens. This means much more than just playing a 3 and 7b - it means playing the note(s) that give that chord its basic character. So the right 2 note combo may be a 3/7, a 2/5, a 3b/7, etc. It may take a three note inversion. For a blues, try comping with 7b/3/6 for the tonic (1 chord), a 6/3b/5 for the subdominant (4 chord), and a 7/4/7b for the dominant (5 chord). Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
If the guitar doubles a note or two with the horn section, it will add nothing and no one will hear it. But if the guitar adds a note or two that clash with the arranger's chord structure, it will add dissonance and everyone will hear it. Keeping it simple doesn't mean keeping it boring
-
If I'm reading this right, you're suggesting what will sound like a fragment of a 13th chord for the tonic. That should work. The 6th would not be expected to conflict with a blues tonic. The next one is a fragment of a 9th chord. Of course it will usually work, but there might be a situation where the horns will have a b9, which is a clash I wouldn't expect to sound good. The third one adds a #9 to the dominant chord which, again, might sound great but might also conflict with a natural 9 in the horns, if there is one. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
So, these are great options, but you still have to take care.
-
You read it right. I wouldn’t worry about that natural 9. In 60 years of playing the blues, I don’t think I’ve ever come across a major 7th as the dominant. In any blues structures I know, it wouldn’t resolve well into the tonic and it’d be a poor transition to a bridge of any kind. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
-
Say the dominant is an F(something) in a Bb blues. You have A Eb and Ab. 3 b7 and #9. Couldn't the horns have a G there? And, if they did, wouldn't that conflict (and not in a good way)? Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
What am I missing?
-
I can’t help but feels Regs post have more do to with his aesthetic preferences than the OP’s situation given he specified a ‘1940s’ type of thing?
Anyway, the way to play traditional big band guitar is pretty stylistically constrained. Jonathan Stout/Campus 5 is a good source.
There are also bands where playing in a more modern post-Bill Evans way described by Reg will be much more appropriate. Usually these are situations without piano (tbf pianists also have to adjust to spot the Basie thing; very sparse left hand)
Freddie green style guitar is NOT about 3rds and 7ths btw. You actually want to avoid major sevenths and minor seventh chords unless specified for instance in a lot of this music. Play major or minor triads if in doubt (spread voicings are great). Sixths are often ok. Think of it less as jazz in this situation and more like very old pop. Keep it simple if in doubt and focus on FEEL. Freddie often fretted only the D string, muting all the others
Avoiding muddiness with the bass is primarily an EQ issue. The old guys like Freddie played big bodied acoustic guitars. These days we kind of need amplification as horn players and drummers like to go for it (and electric bass is not uncommon.) So roll off the bass and watch the volume. If you get the selective muting technique down you might want to mute the 5th and 6th string, but those are much less an issue if you set your amp right. You want a sound where you have to hit the strings quite hard and the guitar has relatively little sustain.
Don’t worry too much about what the horns are playing; you won’t be heard anyway; those bits are about the horns and the drums. The guitar is heard in the quiet bits.
There are more modern ways to do - even with straight fours actually- and it’s not the Alpha and Omega even of big band comping, but I feel that this is what most big band leaders playing Basie rep etc expect and want. No room for ego in this stuff…
-
…except when they were playing blues, which is the OP’s stated concern. Listen to the Basie band back Joe Williams on Every Day I Have the Blues. And Sam Herman drove the Jones-Lewis band to a beautiful frenzy on the album they made on Solid State. Listen to “Smack Dab in the Middle” and “Evil Man Blues” to hear the pulsing 3/7b in just the right places. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
As I heard and adopted it, the combo is more often 7b/3 than 3/7b. The inverted interval just sounds cooler, and you can add a 6 to it easily if it fits the chart or the solos played over it.Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 01-26-2023 at 11:08 AM.
-
I’d have to listen to those again! Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
in general what I play is what’s on the chart, and iirc often the I chord is a 6 or just major, sometimes a dom7. I wouldn’t say there’s a huge divergence in harmonic style between the 12 bar numbers and the 32 bar tunes in that rep; it’s all bluesy.
Also some guitar parts get really into the horn parts and you see all types of crazy stuff. Others tend to just give basic chords. Depends.
Historically I would say that the swing era (late 30s/40s) blues tended to have more of a 6th tonality for what it’s worth. That’s what I would play in a Charlie Christian/40s small group type of band. I also prefer it for an authentic Parker style bop blues; perhaps with a passing chord - biiim7 or something - in bar 8
| I6 | IV7 | I6 | I7 |
| IV7 | % | I6 | % |
| IIm7 | V7 | I6 | IIm7 V7 |Last edited by Christian Miller; 01-26-2023 at 01:40 PM.
-
Listening to Smack Dab what I hear the guitar playing on the chorus out is basically a really simple one note comp.
F - x x 7 x x
Bb7 - x x 6 x x
F - x x 7 x x
C7 - X x 8 x x
And then a little turnaround bit repeating at the end
x x 5 x x
x x 6 x x
x x 7 x x
So basically - 3rd if I, b7 of IV, b7 of V
so obviously thirds and sevenths… but what I mean is he isn’t playing like two guide tones together or a full shell voicing like a lot of people, if that makes any sense. it’s more like a tenor line; he may even fret a full chord but the other notes are muted…
From what I know I would not expect him to often play b7 on the I chord, but I’ll have to listen a bit more to different blues tunes and see if I’m right.
amazing minimalism- and it might seem a little bit hard to hear…. but once you start listening for Freddie in that frequency notch he’s really distinct and once you hear the one note thing you can’t unhear it. I’d recognise his playing anywhere; no one else plays like that haha.
Reply With Quote
Giving the Loar some love
Today, 05:05 PM in The Builder's Bench