Sick of reading so much rubbish!

[KingKong]

It's almost like songs don't have similarities, and learning one in multiple keys could actually help you learn another.

Or that singers who need different keys don't exist.

Or you could just actually learn the other song?

Yeh so you agree with the singer what key to do it in before hand, then move ur hand up or down a few frets from where u normally do it and play the tune.

Else ur just doing exercises for the sake of them and preparing for situations that probably aren't gonna happen....

'Shit, one day i might meet a singer who can only do autumn leaves in H sharp flat minor, I need to learn it in all 12 keys just to be safe '....

No!

[Jimmy Smith]

What would be the point of this exercise?

To be proficient in all keys. Not necessary tho. Even my teacher, Tony Monaco doesn't do this.

[KingKong]

Knowing the notes isn’t important???

No it isn't. The 5th in a given key is the 5th in that key. That's what it is. On the guitar it is irrelevant if it is a b flat or a g sharp. Completely.

[Liarspoker]

Where is Marinero when you need him

I've my popcorn ready

[Reg]

He did say what he was saying...

"Anyway, that is my view, sick of reading so much rubbish so I decided to write a load of my own, enjoy!"

[rpjazzguitar]

I don't think you "learn" Autumn Leaves, or any other melody, in 12 keys.

Rather, you learn the melody the same way anybody remembers a song.

But, you can play that melody starting on any note.

Same argument for the harmony, although, I find it harder with chords, so I practice tunes in other keys. More for the ear training than anything else.

As far as learning 12 keys it really depends on what you're trying to do. If all you're doing is playing originals or standards you may be okay without the 12 key skills.

If you're in a setting where somebody puts a chart on your stand in 6 flats or 5 sharps and you have to play the melody and solo, it would be helpful to know all the keys.

For six sharps, I can't stay that calm. Who does that to his/her fellow musicians?

[DonEsteban]

Why do I have to think Dunning Kruger and Mt. Stupid all the time when I read this rant?

Hm... oh, there it'll be.. Valley of Despair.... soon to come... or maybe not... we'll see...

[DonEsteban]

In a more serious way:

Mr. OP

It all depends on what you want to do.

Be a professional musician?

Not a chance without knowing all 12 keys, being able to sight read very well and, I can hardly believe I would ever write something like this, being able to NATURALLY name all the notes on your instrument.

Of course, if you take music making like "Guitar Hero", then that all goes away. But then what are you doing hanging out in a forum like this, unless you're the 1000% troll Jeff already mentioned.

If you're not a troll, why don't you just ask us here specifically about the points that seemed weird/strange to you. There are countless very patient people on this forum who will gladly clear up your misconceptions.

But with a rant to introduce yourself ... Style to whom style is due....

So. My 2c

[garybaldy]

Playing with a singer? Just don't forget your capo!!
(For Eb just capo at the 11th - easy)

[DonEsteban]

....snip.... can someone give me a concrete example where not instantly knowing that the 6th fret on the d string is a G sharp is going to mess me up?

Hi OP again....

We musicians have been thinking writing and talking in certain terms and agreed rules for centuries. Does the name J.S.Bach mean anything to you? Or Beethoven, Mozart, Gershwin, Parker, Gillespie, Davis?

For example, we all know that the third of an E major chord is a G sharp, not a G. Or A. Therefore, it is essential to know that "D string, 6th fret" is a G sharp.

If you don't know that, you'll be a camp fire guitarist forever. Sure, OK... I have no problem with that, your choice, but then what are you doing on this forum? I mean, other than trolling?

[DonEsteban]

BTW:

"Sick of reading so much rubbish!"

So don't!

So many stupid CAGED sites out there.. Millions of stupid "play like a pro in 5 minutes" on the Tube... go there, don't waste time here with the over complicated nerds....

I mean YOUR time BTW...

>> plonk<<<

[rpjazzguitar]

Sure. You're reading a part that contains a G#. Probably a good idea to know where it is on the fingerboard.

Some musical activities require this sort of knowledge, others don't.

I get calls because I know how to read. If I didn't know how to read, I wouldn't get those calls.

I use the knowledge in other ways, but I'm aware that there are alternatives. There is no alternative to reading if you want to play in situations which require reading.

I'm trying to imagine the look on the big band leader's face if I asked for a guitar book in tab.

[KingKong]

Hi OP again....

We musicians have been thinking writing and talking in certain terms and agreed rules for centuries. Does the name J.S.Bach mean anything to you? Or Beethoven, Mozart, Gershwin, Parker, Gillespie, Davis?

For example, we all know that the third of an E major chord is a G sharp, not a G. Or A. Therefore, it is essential to know that "D string, 6th fret" is a G sharp.

If you don't know that, you'll be a camp fire guitarist forever. Sure, OK... I have no problem with that, your choice, but then what are you doing on this forum? I mean, other than trolling?

And in one post you eloquently prove my point!

BS post score marked out of 100...

Name dropping Bach, Mozart, beethoven, Gillespie, parker AND Davis...... Say 10 points each....

60 points.

Patronising tone including use of 'we musicians'....

10 points.

Statement of BS as absolute unquestionable fact..

10 points.

Arrogant dismissal of inferior 'campfire guitarist'

10 points.

Sadly thats only 90 points out of a possible 100. What it needed was something like....

'well as Duke Elephant once said, if you don't know all the notes then you don't know ANY of the notes'

To get the full 100...

[KingKong]

Sure. You're reading a part that contains a G#. Probably a good idea to know where it is on the fingerboard.

Some musical activities require this sort of knowledge, others don't.

I get calls because I know how to read. If I didn't know how to read, I wouldn't get those calls.

I use the knowledge in other ways, but I'm aware that there are alternatives. There is no alternative to reading if you want to play in situations which require reading.

I'm trying to imagine the look on the big band leader's face if I asked for a guitar book in tab.

This is valid and is an argument for being able to both sight read and know all the frets by note name.

But I would ask the question how many guitarists are gonna be in that situation? Even yourself if you don't mind me asking? Aren't the heads the only thing with actual defined notes to follow and also would you be playing it as opposed to the horn section?

So yes if a guitarist had learnt to sight read and knew all the notes instantaneously that would help, but this is a situation that I don't think will arise for many people. So it takes me back to a point I made earlier, that a lot of these rigid disciplined ideas that people tout are actually for circumstances that are probably never going to arise.

Thanks for the constructive reply though as opposed to calling me a troll.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

If you don't know that, you'll be a camp fire guitarist forever. Sure, OK... I have no problem with that, your choice, but then what are you doing on this forum? I mean, other than trolling?

That seems a bit harsh to me. If someone wants to be a campfire guitarist, being a campfire guitarist is fine. As I said earlier in this thread...

We don't all have the same wants, needs, goals, and ambitions. We play in different settings and at different levels. And we each choose our own acceptable level of accomplishment. So there's only one thing you must do to achieve the greatness that's within you. You must acquire and develop the knowledge, skill and experience to say what you want to say through your guitar (or any other instrument) exactly as you want to say it. You need to be able to play what you want to play as well as you want to play it in the setting(s) in which you want to play it. That's all.

If you're happy with your playing, you're both "good enough" and fortunate to be so. I wish all of us the same blissful state.

It's not enough for me, and I suspect it's not enough for you. But that's no reason to berate those for whom it is enough. I think anyone who likes to read this forum should feel welcome to do so, regardless of his or her level of playing - and they should feel welcome to contribute their thoughts. The general definition of an internet troll is someone who displays "malicious online behaviour, characterised by aggressive and deliberate provocation of others". Being an innocent and happy amateur guitarist seems to me not to qualify, even if he or she can't play any tune in any key.

[ChazFromCali]

I don't know, it just seems like common sense to me. If a guy can play, I listen to what he has to say.

True.
That helps, lol. I would tend to pay attention to Joe Pass rather than Joe Nobody, re: guitar, etc.

But, do I need a poly-sci. degree to comment on a political social media post? I might have something intelligent to say, even though..... could be someone outside or on the periphery of something can see it clearer.

I have to agree with a lot of the O.P. - so much "guitar education" (and stuff on guitar forums) is straight bullsh*t and slick marketing.

[Dennis D]

To whom it may concern - -

[alpop]

True.
That helps, lol. I would tend to pay attention to Joe Pass rather than Joe Nobody, re: guitar, etc.

But, do I need a poly-sci. degree to comment on a political social media post? I might have something intelligent to say, even though..... could be someone outside or on the periphery of something can see it clearer.

I have to agree with a lot of the O.P. - so much "guitar education" (and stuff on guitar forums) is straight bullsh*t and slick marketing.

Of course a non-expert could have something intelligent to say. I would just rather hear opinions from credible sources.

Also, it is cool that you agree with a lot of the OP. I don't (except for the having fun part) and that is cool too right?

The tone of the rant bothered me for some reason, so I was hoping he could post some of his playing so I could see where he was coming from. If he's a really good player then I guess I could see some humor in the rant. If he's a hacker like me then I have enough of my own misconceptions to sort through.

Good luck to you, enjoy your guitar journey.

[KingKong]

Why there this assumption that I've got to be some kind of low level guitarist to have the opinions that I have?!

Do the likes of Jimmy Smith get demanded to post some of their material when they pontificate on any given day?

This guy can't play a tune in all 12 keys AND HE DOESN'T EVEN COMPREHEND WHY HE SHOULD!!

Campfire guitarist playing cowboy chords, that's what HE is, not one of US musicians...

Perhaps it is the mark of genuine understanding and insight to be able to dismiss pretence, sniff out bs and simplify complexity?

[Alter]

A lot of what the OP mentions are dilemmas that don't really exist. Like simple chords vs drop 2 and drop 3, or degrees vs actual notes, practicing vs learning tunes.

These things don't work against each other, but are complimentary, and of great use to a player. Today, not having great sight reading is a huge handicap in working (because everyone else does!). People are going to give you their music to play, if you can't read it you're off the gig, and never called back for a reading gig again. Same for basic repertoire if you don't have it down. You need to play a chord solo, drop 2 will come in handy.. etc..

I see it best to learn as much as one can, we only become better musicians by doing it. And it's also one of the best things about playing the guitar, for each thing you manage to learn, there are ten more starting where you finished.

[rpjazzguitar]

This is valid and is an argument for being able to both sight read and know all the frets by note name.

But I would ask the question how many guitarists are gonna be in that situation? Even yourself if you don't mind me asking? Aren't the heads the only thing with actual defined notes to follow and also would you be playing it as opposed to the horn section?

So yes if a guitarist had learnt to sight read and knew all the notes instantaneously that would help, but this is a situation that I don't think will arise for many people. So it takes me back to a point I made earlier, that a lot of these rigid disciplined ideas that people tout are actually for circumstances that are probably never going to arise.

Thanks for the constructive reply though as opposed to calling me a troll.

I can answer for myself. I'm not sure how common this is, although I suspect that people who know how to read are fairly likely to find situations where it's required.

I lead and play in small groups. Mostly Brazilian jazz. Sometimes the guitarist has the head, sometimes a written-out harmony. I can read them.

The harmonies tend to be complicated and frequently modulate to other keys. I get through that substantially by knowing the names of the notes in the chords and scales I use -- if I have to think to avoid clams. I know some other ways to get through changes, but knowing the notes is my main thing. Obviously, a lot of people manage differently.

In big band playing the guitarist, fairly often, has written out single-note parts, not just chords. I play in two big bands and an octet and all the books have this sort of thing. Some more than others. It can be harmonizing the head, playing a countermelody to the head, playing backgrounds behind solos, shout choruses or whatever else the arranger came up with.

One of the bands is a rehearsal band that gigs occasionally. The book is more than 500 tunes and I have so far only once played a tune twice. It's read or leave. Not for everyone, but it exists and I enjoy it.