The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Posts 26 to 50 of 52
  1. #26

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... I might know that man. I tend to take it for granted that we're all good players and can play a tune anyway we feel like on the spot with out too much being said. I also notice that many guitarist spend too much time staring at their fretboard... at it can be tough to make cues or changes in live time. LOL

    I mean part of the enjoyment of playing is being on he edge....not knowing where tunes might be going.

    I guess I'm just too loose.
    I like that too. That’s a big part of the fun for me.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

    User Info Menu

    I think it’s also worth bearing in mind that different tunes work differently. An old jazz standard from the 30s has been harmonised a million different ways by the time it arrives in our hands; the identity of the song is mostly in the melody and depending on the tune the original changes maybe a bit old fashioned or songbooky for jazz improvisers (otoh I notice people who take standards seriously invariably go back to the sheet music arrangement even if they don’t play it.)

    in this case it’s good to know the basic bitch Real Book changes (which may be at variance with the ‘correct’ changes sometimes but you should know them because some musicians will play them) as well as some common variations, the most recorded changes and intros and stuff where appropriate. But generally the feeling is playing the standard with your own vibe.

    OTOH original jazz compositions like Wayne Shorter etc have much more of the identity in the chords - you can obviously reharmonise them and so on, but when you play the tune without a chart you will probably play as close as you can to what Wayne recorded in 1964 or whatever. This can be a bit of problem for making the music looser and more individual imo.

    Funnily enough Miles seems not to have observed this rule in the slightest when playing his contemporary’s compositions which can be confusing when learning changes for Round Midnight or Stablemates which are quite modified (or ‘*^**ed up as Benny Golson would put it) because really jazz education materials such as the Real Book are often referencing the Miles recordings as a basic source (see Stella etc). Otoh I kind of like that he doesn’t play them the same.

    It’s also interesting how rarely people play the tunes from Kind of Blue with attention to the original arrangements. Perhaps this is because we learn these tunes early on.

    However, people also get into that ‘play the record’ mindset generally. I notice a lot of straightahead players in London seem keen on playing Clifford Brown or version of this or that standard, with specific intros and changes and so on. Not sure how that is elsewhere. I think it’s good to know that stuff and I should learn more of that type of thing, but I’d rather do my own thing with it.

    Sometimes it can act as a bit of gatekeeping from this or that community which I find a bit tiresome. But I do think it’s important to get inside tunes as much as you can.

    I remember what Bruce Forman said about the older generations making more mistakes due the limitations of learning from shellac and vinyl. The Omnibook and Realbooks are full of mistakes, and so on. Now musicians can be very accurate with digital media you can play as many times as you like and powerful software Transcribe etc, but evolution can’t happen without some mutation. As I say, you can also hear on classic recordings that players often have slightly different ideas of the changes, and I think that adds texture.

    i sometimes wonder if the emphasis on accuracy is making it harder to play jazz, and turning it into a type of classical music. As Keith Tippett used to say ‘young jazzers, jazz is in danger of becoming a repertoire music.’
    What we today call the repertoire is of course mostly songs people knew off the radio in 1952.

    Keith’s answer was to align with European non-idiomatic/free improvisation (although he was always a jazzer) something which doesn’t appeal to me any more than playing exactly what Clifford did in the 50s. Barry’s answer of course was to place jazz as an Art Music, a continuation of Bach and Chopin.

    It seems to me that jazz had a sweet spot between freedom and constraint - and that for me that sweet spot is really important…. probably different for everyone. For me that’s calling a standard or a blues and everyone having their own slightly different take on it, but it works because people are listening; like when Parker plays the major seventh and the piano is playing a 7#11 and it still sounds great… you won’t find that in a textbook but playing with others only.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-08-2022 at 05:23 AM.

  4. #28

    User Info Menu

    I put the notes, define the style and form - we play.
    We practice pre-arranged moments and we wish each other good luck.

  5. #29

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    And, otoh, there's this.

    I play regularly with an excellent pianist with a degree in music. He likes to talk through a chart if there's anybody in the group who isn't familiar with it. And, sometimes, if everybody is familiar with it.

    A lot of this is roadmap, but he'll cover anything that strikes him as prone to error.

    His belief is that it's better to talk things over in advance than to make errors while you're playing the tune. Hard to argue with, right?

    But, one time, with an absolute top pro drummer who can read anything, the pianist was doing this on every tune with the drummer clearly showing impatience. Eventually the drummer said, "Let's just play it and make it sound good".
    Haha I’m with the drummer. I think a lot of people I know would rather tidy it all up though. Great little illustration anyway tho, thanks.

    Pianists are prone to that urge generally I would say*. You could say Barry was like that - a scientist - interested in systems and theories and discoveries. Drummers are more the shamans (tho there’s a scientific side to rhythm obviously) and are interested in process, the moment, connecting and the feeling. It’s a stereotype of course, but I think there’s a lot of truth to it.

    That dichotomy is a great thing. If you have too much of one or the other it can be a problem imo. It’s also the reason why good bands can have a bit of tension sometimes!

    *guitarists try to do this to, but are hamstrung by the illogicality of their silly instrument and are forced to spend years learning stuff that takes an afternoon on piano.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-08-2022 at 05:41 AM.

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy
    In bar 3 can I play Dm7 Dbdim7 ?
    Strangely enough, that change is rarely played but it’s exactly what Gershwin wrote in I Got Rhythm.

  7. #31

    User Info Menu

    I'll add... that when you understand harmony, and also jazz harmony..... the changes imply more than roots or basic changes. Extensions can and generally do have musical organization. By that I mean.... extensions imply what has become jazz common practice. Not just triads and 7th chords. (and embellishments)

    Just like there is functional harmony designed and organized with Maj. as the References for harmonic and melodic relationships... extensions also have musical organization with functional relationships. The expansion of organization with reference to extensions is what creates Chord Patterns... that have taken the place of basic changes.

    Playing jazz personally... is not about performing a tune from a chart.... or called out version of a chart. The changes are like a basic or simple melody. You don't just keep playing the same melody over and over, it's just the starting point. And when we perform.... the development of that basic tune or chart... is created by what harmonic, melodic and rhythmic relationships we musically develop with that Tune. It becomes the Reference and those musical relationships and their developments do have organization.

    A simple example would be take a simple blues tune in Fmaj. Now play the tune in Fmin. The notes and harmony would be different. Say Billie's Bounce.... so what Minor reference would you use?

    The point is there are choices... with different results. And the choices you make have implications....

    I do get it.... most don't approach performing.... or just playing jazz this way. But some do.

  8. #32

    User Info Menu

    Slight thread hijack.

    I have a chart for a Hermeto Pascoal tune in 7/4 called Musica Das Nuvens e Do Chao.

    It's two pages. Page 1 is all melody with the harmonization changing every chorus. It gets to a different chord every 1/8th note. Slow tempo, but challenging enough.

    Then, at the top of page 2, there's a drum break to set up a new groove, 7/4 at 200bpm. It's a pattern that is eccentric enough that it can be hard to find One.

    Anyway, the melody is beautiful and I thought it tended to get lost in all that racket from the drums.

    So, I suggested (to different groups) that we ignore page one, ignore the drum break and just play the rest of page 2 (which contains melody and changes that work for solos) as a medium tempo samba in 7.

    So, finally to the point of this post. I couldn't get them to do it. They seemed unable to ignore the chart. Struck me as strange, but that's what happened. Maybe it's because those groups have always been about reading new material.

    So, I wrote out a new chart in Musescore. Exactly the same melody and harmony as page 2, but omitting all of page 1 and that drum pattern.

    Then everybody played it without difficulty and liked doing it that way.

    I think this speaks to a kind of rigidity that is the opposite of what Reg is talking about (and does on his gigs), which I think is great. My thought is that if the musicians themselves know what's going to happen, it's not quite jazz. Jazz is properly created in the moment.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 06-08-2022 at 04:11 PM.

  9. #33

    User Info Menu

    l
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Slight thread hijack.

    I have a chart for a Hermeto Pascoal tune in 7/4 called Musica Das Nuvens e Do Chao.

    It's two pages. Page 1 is all melody with the harmonization changing every chorus. It gets to a different chord every 1/8th note. Slow tempo, but challenging enough.

    Then, at the top of page 2, there's a drum break to set up a new groove, 7/4 at 200bpm. It's a pattern that is eccentric enough that it can be hard to find One.

    Anyway, the melody is beautiful and I thought it tended to get lost in all that racket from the drums.

    So, I suggested (to different groups) that we ignore page one, ignore the drum break and just play the rest of page 2 (which contained solo changes) as a medium tempo samba in 7.

    So, finally to the point of this post. I couldn't get them to do it. They seemed unable to ignore the chart. Struck me as strange, but that's what happened. Maybe it's because those groups have always been about reading new material.

    So, I wrote out a new chart in Musescore. Exactly the same melody and harmony as page 2, but omitting all of page 1 and that drum pattern.

    Then everybody played it without difficulty and liked doing it that way.

    I think this speaks to a kind of rigidity that is the opposite of what Reg is talking about, which I think is great. My thought is that if the musicians themselves know what's going to happen, it's not quite jazz. Jazz is properly created in the moment.
    yeah it’s quite crazy how inflexible players become when they go into trading mode. I learned through a few train wrecks on gig - write everything out exactly as a score or do a lead sheet. Do not attempt any combination of the two lol

  10. #34

    User Info Menu

    It's a bit of a Catch-22. If folks are experienced enough to know where the 'trouble spots*" are, they usually sort themselves out without need for much verbal communication, if folks are still struggling to internalize one version of the form/changes, it's hard to ask much more of them


    * when/how to get to the D minor on Days Of Wine And Roses, will we do that F# thing on rhythm changes, etc. etc. A lot comes with experience and context. Certain scenes and players will favor certain intros, endings and changes. If the last tune the pianist called was Turn Out The Stars, they're probably going to play the chromatic ii-V's on How Deep Is The Ocean....

    Of course, running down original music can demand more communication. I had a gig recently where the group read a bunch of my new tunes. One had an 8 bar bridge, but the phase lengths were 1,2,2,1,2, which merits some discussion...

    PK

  11. #35

    User Info Menu

    As a hybrid player, the dichotomy between Jazz and Classical is very clear. Creativity in CM is largely playing with tonalities, nuance, accents, time(accelerando/diminuendo), overall interpretation within the musical score/period and "personality." However, JM is a very different world since the Jazzer works within the context of a melodic line and a flexible harmonic structure. So, what you hear will not necessarily be what your band mate hears and that's why the music with the "right" musicians can be so interesting and conversely, why so much of today's music is so "wrong": over-rehearsed, predictable, lacking inspiration with their pre-programmed, "how to Play Jazz" mentalities. I played exclusively in ensembles for 18 years(sax/flute/guitar) and with the exception of playing strict-time horn charts, we allowed the music to develop organically as we played through the changes based on basic charts. However, if something was really "off," we'd talk about it. Sadly, for many, we live in a world which reflects the generations which purport this mentality and that's why so much of the music sounds the same . . Jazz is dying . . . almost dead . . . bring on the Rockers, Man!
    Marinero

  12. #36

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    As a hybrid player, the dichotomy between Jazz and Classical is very clear. Creativity in CM is largely playing with tonalities, nuance, accents, time(accelerando/diminuendo), overall interpretation within the musical score/period and "personality." However, JM is a very different world since the Jazzer works within the context of a melodic line and a flexible harmonic structure. So, what you hear will not necessarily be what your band mate hears and that's why the music with the "right" musicians can be so interesting and conversely, why so much of today's music is so "wrong": over-rehearsed, predictable, lacking inspiration with their pre-programmed, "how to Play Jazz" mentalities. I played exclusively in ensembles for 18 years(sax/flute/guitar) and with the exception of playing strict-time horn charts, we allowed the music to develop organically as we played through the changes based on basic charts. However, if something was really "off," we'd talk about it. Sadly, for many, we live in a world which reflects the generations which purport this mentality and that's why so much of the music sounds the same . . Jazz is dying . . . almost dead . . . bring on the Rockers, Man!
    Marinero
    good grief have you heard rock recently?

    jazz has more life in it atm frankly

  13. #37

    User Info Menu

    Rock is in it's bloated, dead on a toilet phase.

    There's actually some interesting things happening on the fringes of pop music.


  14. #38

    User Info Menu

    Yea... generally most musician I'm lucky enough to perform with, (only night off this week is... was tues.).. Last night was a Big Band in a city park square, my book and charts. Anyway most trust me well enough to not have train wrecks. At last nights Big Band, I brought 15 new charts and then pulled from book, we played about 6 or 7 of the new ones. I verbally added and made changes right before we played them, generally want to take advantage when great soloist are in one of the horn sections. Usually just intros, outros and solo sections. It's a fun gig, we perform in a circle and the audience gets to move around the band and get up close to players. Take vids etc...

    So I don't really get the problems with live performance... The rhythm section was just trio, Gui., bass and drums. So that's about as easy as it gets, (besides having to work with both Pn. and Gui.)

    Maybe it's the way some memorize or learn how to play tunes. I always start with Form... and just plug and play.
    It's really difficult to get lost.... I can still play some lousy shit, but that's just my lousy choices in the moment.

    Jeff... that was interesting, LOL

  15. #39

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Rock is in it's bloated, dead on a toilet phase.

    There's actually some interesting things happening on the fringes of pop music.

    That is rock. It's indie. And dear sweet lord jesus.

  16. #40

    User Info Menu

    Decades ago, when I first became a Fats Waller fanboi, I read an autobiography that said Fats and his sidemen would figure out the tunes in the taxi on the way to the recording session. The taxis were bigger in those days, and recording sessions consisted of everyone in a big room playing together; his recordings we listen to now were often the first (only) or second take.

    Here is Fats’ I Got Rhythm:



    and here is a remarkable take with Fats, Satchmo, Jack Teagarden, Al Casey, and Bud Powell;


  17. #41

    User Info Menu

    This triggered a memory.

    When I was a young teen, or maybe preteen, I recall being in a Miami hotel. I was in a hallway outside of the showroom.

    There was an alcove with some telephones, each with a little ledge to write something down if you were on the phone.

    But, at this moment several musicians had charts spread out over all the ledges and they were singing their parts. I had the impression that they were singing instrumental parts.

    I don't think I had started studying guitar yet, but I could read notes on Tonette (aka flutophone, the plastic thing) and a little on piano. I recall thinking that this was their rehearsal. I'm guessing they went all the way through the charts, sight singing the arrangement at a high tempo to save time and resolving any ambiguities or problems with the chart.

    I was too young for the showroom, as I recall, but I'd bet these guys nailed everything.

    I've seen the horn players in my big band do the same thing. 15 horns sightsinging an arrangement together.

  18. #42

    User Info Menu

    Yea…if I hear a cool tune or arrangement of a tune driving to a gig… many times I’ll make a quick verbal arrangement right before we perform… that typically sounds great and becomes a new and fun tune to play. I’ll try and do that tonight… but I’ll probably be listening to playoff game LoL, we play after game at local Pub

  19. #43

    User Info Menu

    Great ideas and info from some actual pros -- thanks!

    I remember many years ago seeing my old teacher playing a restaurant gig -- bass and guitar -- and they were playing a tune (I forget which, it doesn't matter), and I kept noticing my teacher chucking throughout. I just recall the music being "great," and when I asked him about it later, he said, "Yeah, at the top of each chorus, the bass player went up the circle to the next key, so I was just trying to catch up with him!" My ears weren't good enough at the time to hear that, but they were pros, it sounded great, the audience enjoyed the music, and I know they didn't "talk about it" before hand! They played and they listened, and they made music. [Would they have done that at a high-paying "performance," in front of hundreds of paying customers?? I don't know ... maybe, maybe not .. they were pros, though, so they knew how to sound good.]

    I'm a semi-pro, and my band plays "different/modern" charts, so we definitely talk about them at rehearsals. When I play at jazz jams with others, the leader calls out a tune, and the band plays.

  20. #44

    User Info Menu

    LOL... yea that's good point marc. I'm playing a Jazz Festival early evening today... we worked on what we "might" play at last nights gig which pays standard shit pay. Not just because festival pays well, but really because typically at festivals you only perform for 1 set and we don't want to waste time.

    I would say that depending on gig and audience... people seem to get more excited when we don't just play rehearsed music...

    Yea... the modulation thing is pretty common. Personally using circle of 5ths is pretty classical... I think it's more common to use 3rds and 4ths. or even just modulating to the relative ....something. Like going from Maj. to Min.

    Or the modal approach, which keeps the tonal center the same, but changes the other changes and need to adjust the melody. That was common back in my college years and after. Back in the stone ages.

    I mean I guess the point is .... you do what your comfortable doing. And that's what people come to see you do.

  21. #45

    User Info Menu

    I play with other pro players and for the most part a tune is called in a particular key, it is counted off and whatever happens, happens.

    Most pro players can adjust to fix any harmonic conflict on the fly. My rule of thumb is go with the piano player (if there is one) as those cats tend to be the most inflexible jazz players on a bandstand.

    In a paid performance, the last thing a venue owner or audience member wants is to sit through a five minute discussion prior to each tune being performed.

    Whether I am the bandleader or a sideman matters not. I know hundreds of tunes, can play most in several keys and have big enough ears to hear when what I am doing doesn't work. And I have the skill set to adjust on the fly. These skills took me years of hard work to develop and IMO, those who have not put in the hard work to play at this level have no business playing for pay in public.

  22. #46

    User Info Menu

    What do we discuss before we improvise?

    usually the football

    (wish id thought of that three pages ago.)

  23. #47
    The less talking beforehand the better, but of course it all depends on the level of the players on the bandstand!

  24. #48

    User Info Menu

    Most likely on stage with improvisers this musical discussion is really satisfied by the playing of the head, reminding or confirming what song is being played, key, tempo, style, and mood. A good drummer can own the song form through his kit playing things that sound like directions - "here comes A part's repeat" or "here we go into the B part", etc.

  25. #49
    When there's a piano, what usually ends up happening is that one of the chord instruments leads the way and that's often the pianist. It should be the best player, but sometimes it's the most stubborn player.

  26. #50

    User Info Menu

    We’ve moved onto the cricket more recently. Different band.