The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I'm trying to organize the diminished scale on the fretboard right now and am looking for advice. Just looking around the internet, there seem to be a lot of options out there. Are there a limited number of popular schools of thought on this?

    Right now I think about the major scale as 7 different fingerings on the fretboard. One where the lowest available note is each of the scale degrees. I could certainly come up with 8 fingerings for diminished with the same guidelines. My gut is telling me that's overkill though since it repeats itself intervallically every minor 3rd. Maybe the best solution is 4 fingerings, one where the lowest note available is each of the 4 roots of the major triads(or dominant7 chords).

    I don't know!

    Was curious to hear how other people approach organizing this scale and if there are any gold standards established.

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  3. #2

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  4. #3

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    It's a symmetrical scale, of limited transposition, so I would start with two forms - one half-whole, the other whole-half. I would try to keep to one position for these, which normally means one of the bass strings gets four notes where I would slide a semitone to play. I'd find the half-whole one easier to visualise because of its relation to the dominant seventh chord.

    Just for the record, here is how I'd play G** half-whole:
    E) -----------------------------------3-4-6
    B) ----------------------------3-5-6
    G) ---------------------3-4-6
    D) ---------------3-5-6
    A) ---------4-5-7
    E) 3-4-6-7

    ... or sometimes I would play it on the two bass strings as follows:
    A) -------2-4-5-7
    E) 3-4-6

    ... in both cases the slide happens between a semitone note.

    Then I'd learn four-note per string fingerings etc. I find this scale gets finger-twisting when you play different intervallic things and extract triad and four-note chord forms from it.

    **bearing in mind of course that G = Bb = Db = E which is what I meant by the scale being of limited transposition...
    Last edited by James W; 05-12-2022 at 02:59 AM.

  5. #4

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    The goal of being flexible with fingerings is aimed at realizing musical phrases. Learning fingerings for scales, arpeggios, ect, is based on the idea that these are raw materials for melody. Scale fingerings are based on the model of a straight up and down the scale rendering which thankfully is not the only musical event for any note collection. Reordering the notes can yield sequences that render any preset fingering approach less viable.
    With that said, onward..........

    an exploration model of scale fingerings:

    My 1st consideration approaching any scale is how to play it in all keys within a single 5 fret position. In this instance the symmetry reduces the number of different scales to only 3. The 4 note per string segments can be played either with a 1-1 or 4-4 slide and also 1-2-3-4 with a pivot (small hop while keeping the thumb stable). Within any 5 frets there is always one unison note between the G and B string that offers a small fingering variant (not addressed below)

    1 2 4 5 // 2 3 5 // 1 3 4 // 1 2 4 // 1 3 4 // 1 2 4 5 //

    1 3 4 // 1 2 4 5 // 2 3 5 // 1 3 4 // 2 3 5 // 1 3 4 //

    2 3 5 // 1 3 4 // 1 2 4 5 // 2 3 5 // 2 4 5 // 2 3 5 //

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My second organizing idea is based on moveable string group formations.

    For 3 notes per string there are only two shapes (H W and W H).
    The fingerings consequentially have only two variants.

    5 6 8 // 4 6 7 // 4 5 7 // 3 5 6 // 4 5 7 // 3 4 6 //

    5 7 8 // 5 6 8 // 4 6 7 // 4 5 7 // 4 6 7 // 4 5 7 //

    Two notes per string is bit out there, lots of down shifts.

    10 11 // 8 9 // 6 7 // 4 5 // 3 4 // 1 2 //

    10 12 // 8 10 // 6 8 // 4 6 // 3 5 // 2 4 //

    Four notes per string likewise has two variants and arcs upward.

    1 2 4 5 // 2 3 5 6 // 3 4 6 7 // 4 5 7 8 // 6 7 9 10 // 8 9 10 11 //

    1 3 4 6 // 2 4 5 7 // 3 5 6 8 // 4 6 7 9 // 6 8 9 11 // 7 9 10 12 //

    Single string likewise has 2 variants which can be fingered using models from 3 notes, 4 notes or 2 notes per string examples.

    1 2 4 5 7 8 10 11 13 14 16 17 19 20

    1 3 4 6 7 9 10 12 13 15 16 18 19
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The 3rd organizing idea is based on connecting a starting note with a target note. For example connecting octaves could be a common target scenario.This game here is based on having the flexibility to craft multiple routes between any two points.

    Inevitably, when all is said and done, it is likely that a few fingerings will emerge as "default go to". One could also just find those, skip all this and be done with it. All good.
    Last edited by bako; 05-12-2022 at 10:23 AM.

  6. #5

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    Cidec

    Ahhh..Diminished Confusion..Again !

    I thank Joe Diorio for this very simple fact:

    There are only three diminished scales...C Db D diminished

    now it is common practice to approach this scale as having two versions: Whole-half step and Half-whole step ..but when you examine these scales you find

    they are the SAME scale just starting on different note

    C Diminished Whole-half

    C D Eb F Gb Ab A B C

    C Diminished Half-whole

    B C D Eb F Gb Ab A B

    much of the confusion with diminished scales is the naming them as different scales: C diminished Whole-half and B diminished Half-whole

    they are the SAME scale just starting on a different note

    Confusion reduction..there are only THREE diminished scales..(not six)

    this point eliminates HALF of the Muscle memory mechanics..(and the .."what scale is this again? "

    once this point is digested and incorporated in your playing you now can see what the scale is about

    it is a symmetrical scale in minor third intervals and has many chords embedded in it that also have symmetrical cycles (and Two tri-tone scales!)

    example: embedded in the C diminished scale you will find:

    D7#9 F7#9 Ab7#9 B7#9 and within these chords you have chord fragments (no root) for Ab13 B13 D13 F13...note the flat-fifth and minor third cycles

    there are alot more chords embedded and the implications give you a vast amount of choices for improvised explorations

    hope this helps

  7. #6

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    This may not be helpful, but it might be worth understanding.

    D F# A C Eb is D7b9 and has 5 notes of DHW.

    The others are F, Ab and B. That's #9, #11 and 6

    So, D HW diminished has the same notes as a D13#11b9#9.

    it's a D7 with both alterations of the ninth (b9 and #9) and the raised 4th. It does not have the raised 5th.

  8. #7

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    Memorize the basic note positions.

    First is W/H in C and second is H/W in B. It's the same scale just with another root.

    If you look at the black dots (red is root) you'll se the underlying structure that repeats over and over over the fingerboard.

    Which/How many fingerings do you use for the diminished scale?-fingerboard-jpg

  9. #8

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    Another way to think about diminished, not that anybody does this, is that Ddim7 is also Dm6b5.

    So, if you've worked out fingerings for Dm7b5 or Dm6 arps, you adjust one note. That's chord tones, not scale.

  10. #9

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    Half-whole 4 notes per string.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen

    I thank Joe Diorio for this very simple fact:

    There are only three diminished scales...C Db D diminished
    This is it.