The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1
    I'm sure this has been asked, so my apologies if I annoy anyone.

    If one had to choose between books that teach concepts with more generic, cliche examples or books of transcriptions of great recordings that are light on the how or why, which would you choose?

    I use both, though I feel I may be getting too bored with the more methodical approach.

    These approaches are two sides of the same coin, for sure, but when I'm studying one way I wonder if I should be studying the other. Is there a support group out there for me?

    What has ben your experience? Maybe I should just soldier through, this way and then that.

    Maybe there are books that successfully leverage each approach, just none of mine.

    Does one graduate from the methodical to the actual? At what point? Ugh.

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  3. #2

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    I'd use books for the generic stuff and ears for the transcriptions.

  4. #3

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    Use both. They're both helpful. Methodology gives you general ideas, the written out stuff gives you examples put into action. It's easier to remember methodology but you can learn from the transcriptions also, particularly if you break them into small bits for licks, ideas, or to even draw points from. No, you don't graduate from methodology. I've been playing jazz for almost 20 years and my teacher talks methodology with me all the time. However, I try to integrate the methodology with the aural. My lessons are recorded so when I'm practicing, I will watch the lesson and focus on a methodology concept and then also try to focus on how he played it to match the sound or integrate an actual lick in cases.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I'd use books for the generic stuff and ears for the transcriptions.
    I'll get there some day. I spend some time learning by ear but its slow going and therefore frustrating. But will improve. But, thinking about it, I certainly could benefit from spending more time on it. Thanks!

    I could spend time on learning by ear and resorting to the written transcriptions if I get too frustrated. Hmmmm...

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    Use both. They're both helpful. Methodology gives you general ideas, the written out stuff gives you examples put into action. It's easier to remember methodology but you can learn from the transcriptions also, particularly if you break them into small bits for licks, ideas, or to even draw points from. No, you don't graduate from methodology. I've been playing jazz for almost 20 years and my teacher talks methodology with me all the time. However, I try to integrate the methodology with the aural. My lessons are recorded so when I'm practicing, I will watch the lesson and focus on a methodology concept and then also try to focus on how he played it to match the sound or integrate an actual lick in cases.
    My hunch is that most would agree with you that both are necessary. So I shall soldier on! I needed your insight, especially WRT graduating from methodology. many thanks.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainLemming
    I'll get there some day. I spend some time learning by ear but its slow going and therefore frustrating. But will improve. But, thinking about it, I certainly could benefit from spending more time on it. Thanks!

    I could spend time on learning by ear and resorting to the written transcriptions if I get too frustrated. Hmmmm...
    Transcribe some easy stuff then.



  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainLemming
    My hunch is that most would agree with you that both are necessary. So I shall soldier on! I needed your insight, especially WRT graduating from methodology. many thanks.
    No prob.

  9. #8
    I think if you are disciplined enough, using theory books will help some. A good teacher will take you further. Transcription books are possibly equally good, but you’ll get more from them if you do the transcriptions yourself.

  10. #9

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    People learn in different ways.

    Transcription is great for ear training and building jazz vocabulary. Hard to be a jazz musician without both of those things.

    Books can teach vocabulary, but it's probably easier for most people to build an effective vocabulary via transcription. That doesn't rule out building vocabulary from a book, but, based on my own experience, it gets into your head and heart when you hear it not when you read it.

    Books can teach a lot of other stuff that musicians need to know. Can't learn to read from a transcription.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainLemming
    I'll get there some day. I spend some time learning by ear but its slow going and therefore frustrating. But will improve. But, thinking about it, I certainly could benefit from spending more time on it. Thanks!

    I could spend time on learning by ear and resorting to the written transcriptions if I get too frustrated. Hmmmm...
    i don’t think this is a bad idea. You can check your work with the published transcriptions to correct your mistakes. Occasionally you may find that the transcription is wrong!

    Starting out with transcription it’s important to have achievable goals; if you focus on learning a lick a day or something that will leave you feeling more empowered. If you set a goal to transcribe 5 choruses of Wes, and lose interest and give up this is likely to leave you feeling like you failed - even if you transcribed quite a lot of material!

    I’ve always got the most out of learning bits and working with them. Some prefer to learn whole solos and I have done this but they quickly get forgotten.

  12. #11

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    The most important thing is motivation.
    I have a lot of books, videos, Cds.etc
    If you feel you need to do the transcriptions yourself - do it. If you want solos of your favorite artist - buy a book.You have to be open to everything - these are years of work.
    The goal is one - to play well and hear well.That's what it is all for.

  13. #12

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    Intermediary opinion: Use both - I think method books or books w licks/lines are helpful in that they help you organize the material. Example: I've found the iii-VI-ii-V lines in David Baker's Bebop book very valuable in getting the language under my fingers. Otoh I think individual lines stick better in my memory if I pick them up from actual solos or transcriptions thereof. There's something about hearing the material in the context of actual music that make them make more sense, even if it's the same damn lick. To me at least

  14. #13

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    There is already a well crafted recipe for learning jazz. I'm not saying it's the only way but a lot of great players talk about it. After going over million books, I realized that I get more out of this recipe than any book can give me.

    Here is how the recipe goes:
    Get good at chord tones and arpeggios. Learn the fretboard well enough that you can outline and voice lead the harmony of tunes. Then add scale tones, embellishments and chromatics. Then start using substitutions/upper extensions. Experiment with these and milk them.

    Once you get to this point, you can really benefit from transcriptions. Whenever you hear something you like, transcribe it to see what is it that you like in that line that you didn't discover yourself. This is important because once you've internalized arpeggios on your instrument well enough, you'll start seeing lines as a set of abstract ideas (rhythmic, harmonic, melodic), not just as a sequence of notes to memorize. You can get more out of a simple line than memorizing an entire solo if you know how to milk a line, IMO.

    Same thing goes for chords. You can start with guide tones, then add extensions, roots etc. Experiment with different extensions, inversions, string groups. Find new voicings by moving each voice to the nearest scale note. Then play around with adding substitutions, passing chords etc. Once you can do that, you can hear comping ideas that you like in records, then analyze them to see what makes them sound good to you etc. etc.

    It's also important to vocalize time and be critical about how good your time is all the time. I'm always a student but people I play with notice most progress in my playing when I go back to the fundamentals in the wood shed.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 05-11-2022 at 02:58 PM.

  15. #14

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    Upon reflection, I'd add this.

    The foundation of good jazz is rhythmic feel, aka, time feel.

    It's hard to write about, so on-line posts tend to focus on topics that are easier to describe in words.

    IMO, it's the most important aspect to playing jazz. Even simple lines sound good with good time. And, with good enough time, you can almost play at random and it will sound pretty good (there are some limits on this).

    I don't see how you can get good time-feel from a book.

    And, you don't necessarily get it from transcription, if you're thinking of transcription as figuring out the notes and time value so that you can write a chart. Better, if you're figuring out how to play along.

    I don't claim to know where great time feel comes from. My guesses are talent and early-and-often exposure to music with good time.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Upon reflection, I'd add this.

    The foundation of good jazz is rhythmic feel, aka, time feel.

    It's hard to write about, so on-line posts tend to focus on topics that are easier to describe in words.

    IMO, it's the most important aspect to playing jazz. Even simple lines sound good with good time. And, with good enough time, you can almost play at random and it will sound pretty good (there are some limits on this).

    I don't see how you can get good time-feel from a book.

    And, you don't necessarily get it from transcription, if you're thinking of transcription as figuring out the notes and time value so that you can write a chart. Better, if you're figuring out how to play along.

    I don't claim to know where great time feel comes from. My guesses are talent and early-and-often exposure to music with good time.
    Agree, listening to others with great time feel is critical, as it serves as a reference, just like any other aesthetic dimension.

    Mike Longo's "The Rhythmic Nature of Jazz" is the closest I've seen to great instruction on time. Of course it's a DVD, not a book, but, as you say, it's difficult, if not impossible to land good time instruction in a book.

    https://youtu.be/IUH16d8oEwE
    DVDs – Mike Longo Jazz

  17. #16

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    Play (and then perform) with others!!

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Upon reflection, I'd add this.

    The foundation of good jazz is rhythmic feel, aka, time feel.

    It's hard to write about, so on-line posts tend to focus on topics that are easier to describe in words.

    IMO, it's the most important aspect to playing jazz. Even simple lines sound good with good time. And, with good enough time, you can almost play at random and it will sound pretty good (there are some limits on this).

    I don't see how you can get good time-feel from a book.

    And, you don't necessarily get it from transcription, if you're thinking of transcription as figuring out the notes and time value so that you can write a chart. Better, if you're figuring out how to play along.

    I don't claim to know where great time feel comes from. My guesses are talent and early-and-often exposure to music with good time.
    What do you mean by “time-feel”? Do you mean swing feel? Or, playing on, behind, or ahead of the beat? Or, do you mean time-keeping? They are all important and related but different.

    Playing with a swing feel, or behind the beat is articulation. I’m pretty sure most can pick that up mostly by listening. Transcribing is intense listening so should help develop rhythmic articulation in all sort of ways. It’s what attracts musicians to jazz, so if you can hear it you can usually play it.

    Time-keeping is another thing altogether, and some players do seem to have an innate sense of it, while others less so. In my opinion, it is one of the most important things to develop as it gives the player freedom, ie, being able to pick up and finish off an idea on the fly anywhere along the bar line at will, freeing up the creative juices without consciously thinking about meter. It is something used in conjunction with your ear, which also has to be developed. If I could start all over again, this is where I’d concentrate my efforts. And, I think transcribing can also help here as well.

    Just my tuppence worth.

  19. #18

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    I speed up hilariously when I’m reading if that’s what you mean :-)

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Saumarez
    What do you mean by “time-feel”? Do you mean swing feel? Or, playing on, behind, or ahead of the beat? Or, do you mean time-keeping? They are all important and related but different.

    Playing with a swing feel, or behind the beat is articulation. I’m pretty sure most can pick that up mostly by listening. Transcribing is intense listening so should help develop rhythmic articulation in all sort of ways. It’s what attracts musicians to jazz, so if you can hear it you can usually play it.

    Time-keeping is another thing altogether, and some players do seem to have an innate sense of it, while others less so. In my opinion, it is one of the most important things to develop as it gives the player freedom, ie, being able to pick up and finish off an idea on the fly anywhere along the bar line at will, freeing up the creative juices without consciously thinking about meter. It is something used in conjunction with your ear, which also has to be developed. If I could start all over again, this is where I’d concentrate my efforts. And, I think transcribing can also help here as well.

    Just my tuppence worth.
    All of the above?

    I probably can't define it very well, but what I'm talking about is that quality that makes everybody in the audience start tapping or swaying or dancing in their seats to your groove. I can hear it in bass/drums, in comping, in playing the head and in soloing.

    My guess is that it includes where you place your notes in relation to the beat, but it's not a simple relationship. It will vary with groove, tempo and melodic statement. It won't be the same in every part of a single solo. Some people have it better than others. I get the impression that it can be learned but it can't be taught, to paraphrase someone I can't recall.

    You can hear it in the simplest two note per bar bass line. Some players will groove that better than others. And, of course, you can hear it in the most complex playing of the greats.

  21. #20

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    Yea... gots to agree with Rick, RP. If you don't get your technique together, which doesn't happen with out having rhythmic skills... it doesn't matter how you approach learning how to play jazz or in a jazz style. You'll never really get there.

    Of course... you need to define what getting there is, right. All the professional musicians I've worked with over the years all basically have the same opinion of what getting there is. There are different opinions as to how to get there and even how you define what your playing etc... But having ears, chops or technique and.... having an understanding of pulse and rhythmic skills are always needed.

    You also need to understand yourself... I personally like understanding music etc... But lots of great musicians don't.

    The trial and error... lots of practice approach works well, you just need the time or perform 6 nights a week for years.

  22. #21

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    The biggest problem with studying through books is that it's difficult to get really motivated, at least compared to studying with a teacher, or even working with transcriptions where you are trying to play a piece of actual music you love.

    But there are so many amazing books, that it's worth the effort. Sometimes you need the theory or the concept to advance, sometimes you need something completely practical.

    Personally I've seen the best results through transcribing using the ear. It doesn't have to be hard stuff, just challenging and part of the language.

  23. #22

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    There is a ton of good books out there. But it really depends on what level you're at as a player. When I started learning the guitar, I surfed the Internet and found some useful info on the original site. So, for beginners, I think the old Mel Bay Modern Guitar Method book is a good go-to. For more advanced players, there's a really interesting one called The Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick. Though it has to be noted that transcription books are also very helpful, especially if you make notes by yourself.
    Last edited by Eugle; 06-22-2022 at 12:46 PM.