The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    However, eminent jazz musicians know exactly what jazz is and what pop is.
    Superb jazz versions of great pop songs arranged by Herbie Hancock - that's it.
    I played that album last night and really enjoyed it: great musicians and almost unrecognisable songs.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    So I'm wondering what the OP actually wants to do. Does he want to produce a gimmick or somehow, in his mind at least, bring more interest to the original songs?
    I want more interesting sounds by doing something a little different. I already do it a bit, by slowing down something originally recorded at a higher tempo, for example. I just wanted to go further, substitute and add a few nice chords, change the phrasing of the vocal melody etc.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4zz
    I want more interesting sounds by doing something a little different. I already do it a bit, by slowing down something originally recorded at a higher tempo, for example. I just wanted to go further, substitute and add a few nice chords, change the phrasing of the vocal melody etc.
    What sort of pop song would you like to do it with? I think that might be important to know.

  5. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    What sort of pop song would you like to do it with? I think that might be important to know.
    I'd rather ask, what sort of pop song would lend itself to this treatment best? I assume, from the above discussions that there are some that won't work well at all. A simple 3 or 4 chord song might be a bit of a challenge, but then, the same would benefit most from the treatment.

  6. #55

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    I'd rather ask, what sort of pop song would lend itself to this treatment best?
    It's the same thing. What pop music have you listened to? You must have some idea. Because if you haven't then I'm tempted to say this is all pie in the sky. It means you have no idea about either pop music or jazz.

  7. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    It's the same thing. What pop music have you listened to? You must have some idea. Because if you haven't then I'm tempted to say this is all pie in the sky. It means you have no idea about either pop music or jazz.
    So you think I have no idea about pop music? Despite the question being in the "Getting Started" section of this forum? I have been playing pop blues and rock since the 1970s, but would never claim to be an expert.

    But to humour you, just for example, a song that I slow down and try to make more interesting, is B.J. Thomas' Hooked on a Feeling. Another is Neil Sedaka's Breaking Up is Hard to do. I believe I have even heard him do a slow version of this.

  8. #57

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    Ah! Thank you. But not to humour me, we need to know to answer your question.

    I've just listened to BJ Thomas and Neil Sedaka. They're both pretty jumpy songs. My own immediate feeling is that, if you really must jazzify them (!) you'd have to slow them down considerably and make the harmonies a lot more subtle. That in turn would make them into ballads... and they just wouldn't be the same songs any more.

    So - sorry - I wouldn't do it, personally. Not with those two examples. You probably ought to find a love song with an interesting middle 8.

  9. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Ah! Thank you. But not to humour me, we need to know to answer your question.

    I've just listened to BJ Thomas and Neil Sedaka. They're both pretty jumpy songs. My own immediate feeling is that, if you really must jazzify them (!) you'd have to slow them down considerably (not just a bit slower) and make the harmonies a lot more subtle. That in turn would make them into ballads... and they just wouldn't be the same songs any more.

    So - sorry - I wouldn't do it, personally. Not with those two examples. You probably ought to find a love song with an interesting middle 8.
    I have heard it done with Breakin' up, and it sounded beautiful. Anyway, that's exactly why I asked instead what songs it will work for, because I knew, the minute I named any, they'd be jumped on as not worthy. Q.E.D.

  10. #59

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    You might want to check out some of Dave Stryker’s ‘8-track’ albums - he has done versions of 1970s hits.


  11. #60

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    Charlie Hunter did a similar thing with Steve Miller’s ‘Fly Like an Eagle’.


  12. #61

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    Some of Stevie Wonder’s songs work well (as someone mentioned before, I think).


  13. #62

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    the minute I named any, they'd be jumped on as not worthy.
    Well, to be honest, that's the feeling I had about it. Not to be nasty to you, but because there's a good reason for it.

    I've no objection to pop, I remember Breaking Up very well! But changing them into jazz... not sure. You saw that Brad Mehldau vid, he hardly changed them at all. With good reason.

    Apart from bebop-type instrumentals, most jazz songs are very idiosyncratic. You know, Paris in the rain and all that. Or relationship songs. I'd say why not listen to a heap of them, get the feel of the style, and then go back to your knowledge of pop to see what occurs?

    Rather than the other way round. I think it would work a lot better.

    By the way, were you going to sing them or play them as instrumentals?

  14. #63

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    This one isn't a bad choice.



    But I keep repeating, I don't think J4zz has any idea of the musicianship required to transform these songs into jazz tunes, I really don't.

  15. #64

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    Another good tune that works:


  16. #65

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    Too late!!

    Except yours is live and we can see what he's doing...

    See, that one's ideal for this. But, from what I remember, he hasn't really changed the harmonies. It's the style and feel that's different. Like Mehldau.


  17. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1

    But I keep repeating, I don't think J4zz has any idea of the musicianship required to transform these songs into jazz tunes, I really don't.
    I repeat, this is the "getting started" section of this forum. I don't appreciate the attitude.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Brad has a remarkable ability to pick interesting modern pop/rock tunes to cover.
    Anything in any style Mehldau did is remarkable.

    I can name improvisers (almost) in his league, I also can name musicians covering (almost) such a wide style as he, but naming anyone who in both category would cause hard time...

  19. #68

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    Just ask yourself "What would Donald Fagen do?"

    Of course, the answer is "write his own much-hipper sh*t, not try to jazz up some dreck."

    I'm just messin' with you... I really just wanted to post that question as a partly smart-a** and partly serious answer to the question. In other words, as another poster said, "play the hell out of it." That is exactly where most jazz standards came from. Many of the current standards were pretty treacly as played in the original shows from whence they came.

    I agree with those who have advised that you need to do something really original, or it will just sound gimmicky. (Which is the sentiment that informs my "what would Don do" topline answer...) I almost always hate hearing "downtempo jazz" versions of pop tunes. I'll be listening to the tune and thinking how much better the original pop version was when I hear time-worn jazz traditions and stylistic devices from 50 years ago applied to a more modern tune. I agree that the older tunes (or tunes written as jazz tunes in the first place, like bebop, cool, and fusion) lend themselves much better to jazz reinterpretation because they are so much more melodic than most newer pop.

    I heard the original version of Breakin Up as a kid and the downtempo re-release that came out 20 or 30 years later and I gotta say that the contrast between these discs really highlights what a killer musician and arranger Sedaka is. I really liked the downtempo version and I think that you (or, say, Herbie) could definitely turn it into a first-class jazz citizen... but if you are a beginner, then that's going to be punching above your weight a bit. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying that as your skill set and concept evolves it'll get easier. Meantime, go at it. It'll be a great learning experience. And keep learning from the masters - eventually your inner voice and your outer influences will meet in the middle somewhere...

    One more thing: guitar poses its own challenges, so don't shy away from guitar arrangements that others have done. If there's a song you want to do, start hitting youtube for as many jazz guitar arrangements of it that you can find. There's no need to re-invent the wheel, especially when you are just starting out. Piece together the ideas you like (and can play) from different sources, and evolve towards more sophisticated approaches as you progress.

    $0.02,

    SJ
    Last edited by starjasmine; 04-08-2022 at 10:37 AM.

  20. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    Just ask yourself "What would Donald Fagen do?"

    Of course, the answer is "write his own much-hipper sh*t, not try to jazz up some dreck."

    I'm just messin' with you... I really just wanted to post that question as a partly smart-a** and partly serious answer to the question. In other words, as another poster said, "play the hell out of it." That is exactly where most jazz standards came from. Many of the current standards were pretty treacly as played in the original shows from whence they came.

    I agree with those who have advised that you need to do something really original, or it will just sound gimmicky. (Which is the sentiment that informs my "what would Don do" topline answer...) I almost always hate hearing "downtempo jazz" versions of pop tunes. I'll be listening to the tune and thinking how much better the original pop version was when I hear time-worn jazz traditions and stylistic devices from 50 years ago applied to a more modern tune. I agree that the older tunes (or tunes written as jazz tunes in the first place, like bebop, cool, and fusion) lend themselves much better to jazz reinterpretation because they are so much more melodic than most newer pop.

    I heard the original version of Breakin Up as a kid and the downtempo re-release that came out 20 or 30 years later and I gotta say that the contrast between these discs really highlights what a killer musician and arranger Sedaka was. I really liked the downtempo version and I think that you (or, say, Herbie) could definitely turn it into a first-class jazz citizen... but if you are a beginner, then that's going to be punching above your weight a bit. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying that as your skill set and concept evolves it'll get easier. Meantime, go at it. It'll be a great learning experience. And keep learning from the masters - eventually your inner voice and your outer influences will meet in the middle somewhere...

    $0.02,

    SJ
    Thanks for the encouragement and the (much better than) $0.02 reponse here. I agree Sedaka did some good stuff. So too Steely Dan / Donald Fagan.

  21. #70

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    To start working on jazz version of pop music tunes you need knowledge, experience, a good ear and good taste ... and perseverance.
    I wish it to everyone.

  22. #71

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    Even Joe Pass had a go at it once.


  23. #72

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    I like a lot Scof/s version on Rolling-Stones's tune:


  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Even Joe Pass had a go at it once.

    also solo guitar:


  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4zz
    I repeat, this is the "getting started" section of this forum. I don't appreciate the attitude.
    J4zz, the only attitude I have is to get certain points over to you. I'm not antagonistic to you, I'm just trying to get you to realise what you're asking. We can either go round the mulberry bush or we can say it like it is. This thread is now on page 3 and where are we?

    There are only two things that matter:

    1) what sort of pop song are we talking about, and
    2) what sort of jazz sound are we wanting.

    That's all. You can, with your background, pick out a certain song. That's easy enough but then the question is whether you can hear in your head how you want it to sound. Smooth, like Dave Stryker? Or angular and outside like Scofield's stuff? Or what?

    Where will you start to answer that? As I said before, it's not just a question of playing some 'jazzy' chords instead of the usual ones, it's a question of the whole feel and delivery of the new version.

    You've asked a good but difficult question. Please see that the answer is complex and isn't a 'just do this' affair.

    You may be getting started in jazz but you're certainly not getting started in pop music so it's a question of studying the jazz alternatives, right? That's what you have to do.

    You'll know you're making progress when you have a clear idea in your head of how you want it to sound.

    Anyway, best of luck. Go to it!

  26. #75

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    The musician asks and looks for answers from different people-musicians.Everyone wants to expand their knowledge and possibly get motivation to act.The rest are purely technical matters.
    Everything is clear to me.
    There is no need to pretend to be an expert on all topics. I don't know experts on this topic at all.
    Last edited by kris; 04-08-2022 at 06:29 AM.