The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Posts 1 to 21 of 21
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    I have played blues and rock for many years and I am branching out to jazz. So I see on youtube and read elsewhere that jazz often uses a maj7 chord for the 1st and a dom7 for the 5th in a 2-5-1 progression

    So, first question, what about blues? Taking a simple 12 bar blues progression as an example - sometimes the maj7 chord for the 1st doesn't harmonise well with the melody. To play the song in a jazz style, do we change the melody, or sometimes use a normal dom7?

    Second question, I also read that a maj7 chord is used for the 4th. However this also sounds wrong often, particularly returning to the root at the end of the 12 bar blues - i.e. 5-4-1 before the turnaround.

    I suspect I am misunderstanding something here. Educate me please

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    1st Question:
    A: In a blues (jazz) form (notice in "jazz" it is more referred to a form than a style of music) the I is usually a Dom7 chord (as is the IV and V). I like to sometimes play the I as a Maj7 though (depends on the melody). See this example of Bucky playing a blues
    . You will notice his first chord is a F Maj7 chord that goes to Bb7 (IV chord) on the 2nd measure. Totally works!

    2md Question:
    A. It can work, depends on the melody, and the bass/key playing being to hear that the 7th of the chord is Maj 7 and not a Min 7.

    There are no "hard and fast" rules here. In jazz, the blues is more commonly looked at as a form rather than a style of playing (though a jazz musician will happily play in a blues style during a chorus or two).

    This site has a very in-depth analysis of the blues and the differences between Blues, the style, and Blues, the form.

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/jazz-...-progressions/

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    With only a few exceptions (e.g. Blues for Alice) the blues form in jazz will use a I7 chord, not a Ima7.

    It sounds like you’re confusing general music theory of the diatonic chords of a major scale (i.e. Ima7, IImi7, IIImi7, IVma7, V7, VImi7, VIImi7(b5) ) with the Harmony used in a blues.

    Jazz definitely expands on the traditional I7, IV7, V7 blues progression in various ways but using Ima7 or IVma7 is not a common alternative. Look for examples of Jazz Blues chord changes. You’ll find many discussions here about this.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by j4zz
    I have played blues and rock for many years and I am branching out to jazz. So I see on youtube and read elsewhere that jazz often uses a maj7 chord for the 1st and a dom7 for the 5th in a 2-5-1 progression

    So, first question, what about blues? Taking a simple 12 bar blues progression as an example - sometimes the maj7 chord for the 1st doesn't harmonise well with the melody. To play the song in a jazz style, do we change the melody, or sometimes use a normal dom7?

    Second question, I also read that a maj7 chord is used for the 4th. However this also sounds wrong often, particularly returning to the root at the end of the 12 bar blues - i.e. 5-4-1 before the turnaround.

    I suspect I am misunderstanding something here. Educate me please
    I mean mostly it depends on the melody. If you are talking about melody you have have the right sort of idea.

    About 50% of people who post on forums like this have no clue, so be careful what you read.

    Some blues tunes have a melody that goes with a maj7 chord (a lot of Bird heads) while others (often ones from the 60s) fit dom7 better.

    For degree IV in blues it’s more common for a IV7 sound but you do get a lot of IVmaj7 chords in standards.

    Basically, the best way to answer your question is for you to learn some tunes.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    You're not wrong, your ears are telling you right.

    A blues generally needs a strong dom (or maj 6) sound at the beginning (rather than a substitute). The 6 sound over a dom7 gives a 13 sound.

    Personally I tend not to use the AbM7 sub for the first Bb7 till I'm into the tune and improvising. Then it's okay but maybe not every time. For the turnaround I tend to use some sort of generic blues lick because they tend to work well over most turnarounds.

    So the M7 sub can be used, but judiciously. It seems to me there's not much wrong with your ears and judgement, you just need the courage of your convictions... and validation :-)
    Validation, yeah I have been playing many years so when something sounds wrong, well you just know. Thanks

  7. #6
    So many replies in a short time. What a great forum.

    Thanks to everyone. I can now push ahead armed with this new information.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    About 50% of people who post on forums like this have no clue, so be careful what you read.
    I feel personally attacked

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    "About 50% of people who post on forums like this have no clue, so be careful what you read"

    This made me laugh, u do certainly see a lot of incoherent music theory rambling.... although maybe this is just me missing the point as I'm far from an expert and lack the inclination to try to understand and analyse what they are saying.

    Slightly off topic maybe but reading the original post got me remembering a you tube video I watched while back where it basically explained how, in a standard simple 12 bar blues progression, the use of the dominant 7 chord for the 1 and the 4 chord allows for the feel of the tune to sit somewhere between a major and minor sound. The result of this is that you can mix the tonic major an minor pentatonic scales up at will, alla so many blues greats like Clapton and bb king.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by j4zz
    So many replies in a short time. What a great forum.

    Thanks to everyone. I can now push ahead armed with this new information.
    Here is an 8 bars blues that you may find interesting. I like that the I (one) is a major 6th chord, the use of III\IV and II\V, and that half-step #IV diminished chord.

    A: I M6 \ IV Dom7, #IV Dim \ III m7, VI Dom7 \ II m7, V Dom7 \ I M6 \ IV Dom7, #IV Dim \ I M6 \ I M6 (repeat).

    B: IV Dom7 \ V Dom7, II Dom7, V Dom 7

    In Bb this would be:

    A: Bb6 \ Eb7, Edim \ Dm7, G7 \ Cm7, F7 \ Bb6 \ Eb7, Edim \ Bb6 \ Bb6

    B: D7, G7, C7, F7

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    Here is an 8 bars blues that you may find interesting. I like that the I (one) is a major 6th chord, the use of III\IV and II\V, and that half-step #IV diminished chord.

    A: I M6 \ IV Dom7, #IV Dim \ III m7, VI Dom7 \ II m7, V Dom7 \ I M6 \ IV Dom7, #IV Dim \ I M6 \ I M6 (repeat).

    B: IV Dom7 \ V Dom7, II Dom7, V Dom 7

    In Bb this would be:

    A: Bb6 \ Eb7, Edim \ Dm7, G7 \ Cm7, F7 \ Bb6 \ Eb7, Edim \ Bb6 \ Bb6

    B: D7, G7, C7, F7
    Certainly the maj6 chord is new to me. Nice

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    The way I view it is 2 things: understand the function of the chord built on the scale degree in the major tonality; and understand the sound and function of each chord.

    In jazz you have to have command of harmony. So for a 1 chord for example, the obvious choice is a major 7 chord because it fits with the tonality and it has the sound you want. Learning the sound of different chords and having command of the harmony opens up many different kinds of major chords like 6, 6/9, maj9, maj7+11, etc.

    What blues does is put a dominant chord functioning as a 1. It is 'technically against the rules' but not really because you just get the feel for how it sounds. It works with the normal functions of the 1,4,5 (and more) chords but just changes the sound. You just go with the feel of the alterations.

    Blues can go the other way too. You can use 6 or maj 7 chords where the dominant chords are. It is just a different sound superimposed over the normal functioning of the underlying tonality.

    Now when you want to do a cadence, you will usually want to use a dominant 7th chord as the 5 chord. But even sometimes there are exceptions to that.

    So there's the underlying rule, or guideline really, then there are ways to change it to change the sound and command the harmony.

    Best of luck with your jazz playing.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    The quick answer to the original question is no, in jazz one doesn't typically use a major 7 on the I and/or IV instead of the dom7. The only thing I can think of to explain why someone would say that this sub is typical of jazz is that the 3rd in V7 is the major 7th of I. In jazz, one tends to hit chord tones more explicitly than in blues-blues styles. So in, say, blues in G, one is more likely to hear an F# in jazz blues than in rock-style blues, more likely over a V chord than aa I or IV.

    But it does invite deeper questions about what exactly blues is. The way I see it, blues isn't so much a song, a genre, or a tonality as it is all three, adapted in a few different overlapping genres and regions with different emphases. Within those genres, there are songs that aren't blues, performed in a non-blues tonality, and there are blues in blues tonality, and there are songs that straddle the boundaries of song form, tonality and genre.

    The essence of the song is a journey from I to IV and back (with some specific exceptions, e.g., John Lee Hooker style boogies) . How long the journey takes (e.g., 10 vs 12 bars, with or without some sort of bridge, extra bars with stops, etc.) and exactly the route it takes vary (e.g., "jazz blues" vs "blues blues" vs "Stormy Monday" changes), but that's the basic idea. The tonality is rooted in micro-tonal singing, with the 3rd, 5th, and sometimes the 7th all spanning a range of tones. So you _can_ play a major 7 over a I7 chord, or play a maj7 chord and make it work, depending on what else is going on in the song, especially as a way to emulate vocal microtonality and melisma on a fixed-interval instrument.

    Not sure which 50% I fall into with this response ...
    Last edited by John A.; 03-22-2022 at 01:58 PM.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by j4zz
    So many replies in a short time. What a great forum.

    Thanks to everyone. I can now push ahead armed with this new information.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Actually, re-reading this, there's an error here. You're saying that because a maj7 can be used as a sub for the first chord in a 2-5-1, it might also be used as a sub for the first chord in a blues. That's what you said, isn't it?

    In a 2-5-1:

    1) 'jazz often uses a maj7 chord for the 1st and a dom7 for the 5th in a 2-5-1 progression'

    In a blues:

    2) 'sometimes the maj7 chord for the 1st doesn't harmonise well'

    But the first chord in a 2-5-1 is a min7 and the first chord in a blues is a dom7. The two aren't the same thing. You sub the maj7 for the chord type, not because of its position in a sequence.

    (Unfortunately, in jazz, a maj7 can be subbed for a dom7 in certain circumstances... I think that may be the confusion here. Put me right if I'm wrong)
    I assumed "first chord" was really the I (one), chord since he also said "maj7 chord is used for the 4th." By 4th it meant forth chord in the Major chord harmonized scale. (Major, Min, Min, Major, Dom, Min, Half-Dim). (and NOT forth chord in a progression).

    So "first chord" in 2\5\1 is the One chord which is Major (third chord played). For Blues the One chord is also the first chord used.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Seems to me that "jazz" is harmonic music and "blues" is modal, thus different rules for each. This is a huge generalization, of course, but it's a good starting point.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Actually, re-reading this, there's an error here. You're saying that because a maj7 can be used as a sub for the first chord in a 2-5-1, it might also be used as a sub for the first chord in a blues. That's what you said, isn't it?

    In a 2-5-1:

    1) 'jazz often uses a maj7 chord for the 1st and a dom7 for the 5th in a 2-5-1 progression'

    In a blues:

    2) 'sometimes the maj7 chord for the 1st doesn't harmonise well'

    But the first chord in a 2-5-1 is a min7 and the first chord in a blues is a dom7. The two aren't the same thing. You sub the maj7 for the chord type, not because of its position in a sequence.

    (Unfortunately, in jazz, a maj7 can be subbed for a dom7 in certain circumstances... I think that may be the confusion here. Put me right if I'm wrong)
    No I meant the first degree, i.e. the C in a C maj scale. So for the 2-5-1 sequence, I mean the last (1) chord.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    If by 'first' he meant the I chord in a 2-5-1 then it's usually a maj7 already. The idea of a maj7 substitution wouldn't have arisen. But we'd need his confirmation to be sure.
    That's just me coming from the blues-rock space. For 2-5-1, I would have normally played the 1 chord as a dom7, so for me, playing the jazz way, I "substitute" a maj7. Sorry about the confusion

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    The quick answer to the original question is no, in jazz one doesn't typically use a major 7 on the I and/or IV instead of the dom7.
    There are lots of places where I am reading that the chords for the 1st and 4th degrees of the scale are normally as maj7.

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Why didn't you say that before?

    Since a 2-5-1 means, in the key of C major, Dm7 - G7 - CM7, why would you need a M7 substitute for it?

    Nevertheless, what we've all been saying about the blues still holds.
    Why are you giving me grief? I said in my first post I was coming from years of playing rock and blues and this IS the "getting started" section of this forum. You may have forgotten (it was so long ago for you), but learning guitarists do not learn to use maj7 chords until later, so in the key of C major, the first degree chord is C major, not Cmaj7 and, especially in blues, it is often a dom7. So hence I used the term "substitute" for playing a Cmaj7 instead of the C7 I would normally play

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    That's correct. In the chords derived from the major scale the I and IV chords are major.

    We better start again.

    There are basically three kinds of blues - dominant, minor and a jazz variant that uses a M7 as the first chord. Apparently it was invented by Charlie Parker (aka 'Bird') and is known as the Bird blues.

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/jazz-blues-chord-progressions/

    Minor Blues Chord Progressions [11 Variations]

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/jazz-...ressions/#bird

    So, yes, you can use a M7 as the first chord in a blues progression. But it's not a sub you use while playing, it's written into that particular form.
    Forgive my last slightly exasperated reply. What you have posted here is new info for me (about the 3 types of blues). Things are becoming clearer. Seems I was just taking the generic statement about using (subbing) maj7 instead of dom7 chords too far.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by j4zz
    Seems I was just taking the generic statement about using (subbing) maj7 instead of dom7 chords too far.
    It appears we have a common understanding now. Yea, you were taking this "subbing major instead of dom7" just a little too far.

    Note that I used major instead of maj7, because as I noted in the 8 bar blues, the One chord (first chord used in the progression as well as the root for the progression), can be a Major 6th chord. Below is a chart I have provided to my blues and rock friends and has proven to be really useful to them. For example, in the key of F the first one is the standard I\IV\V blues progression:

    F7, F7, F7, F7, Bb7, Bb7, F7, F7, C7, Bb7, F7, F7 The next one is:

    F7, Bb7, F7, F7, Bb7, Bb7, F7, F7, C7, Bb7, F7, C7 (the only differences are in bar-2 and bar-12). The next one is:

    F7, Bb7, F7, F7, Bb7, Bb7, F7, F7, Gm7, C7, F7 Dm7, Gm7 C7 (here the differences are in the last 4 bars with a minor II (G) to the Vdom7, Idom7 to the minor VI (D), and minor II (G) to Vdom7) This shows how one can sub minor chords found in the major harmonic scale for the standard dominant 7 chords found in the blues progression: I'm lazy so I'm going to skip some (there is a total of 8).

    Here is the 7th one (the 8th one is the birds-blues which was already provided): I play this one the most but it took a lot of practice for me to play this keeping the blues feels: 13th chords instead of Dom7, half-step #IV dim7 movement, chromatic root movement and lot of others subs, like Dom9 chords instead of Dom7, that all "work". I 'm pointing this one out as a possible goal (but learn the others ones first is what is recommended). Have fun!

    F13, Bb13 Bdim7, F13 Dbm7, Cm7 B7, Bb7, Bbm6, Am7, D7b9, Gm7 Db9, C9 Bb7, Am7 Ab13, Gm7 C7b9

    that Bb7 in bar-5 is an anchor chord in that it is a IVdom7 just like in the standard progression but other than that I can understand why this might not look like a blues progression at all!
    Last edited by jameslovestal; 03-22-2022 at 08:57 PM.