The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hey there,

    I'm new here (I wrote more about my background when I introduced myself) and I just started out in William Leavitt's Phase 1 book. I have a technique question: when playing a note that is an open string, followed by a note on a different string, it seems to me like that first note should not continue to be heard after that second note started. With non-open string notes I don't find this much of a problem, as I just mute it by taking most of the weight off the fretting finger, but what to do with the open string note? Should I use the palm of my right hand to mute it? I find it quite difficult to do this without cutting it short, or without losing awareness of where my right hand/the pick is.

    These 2 bars are a good example. After playing the G (open string) in the first bar, I play a D in the second bar. By then, I can still hear the G.

    Question regarding technique (Leavitt Phase 1)-question-jpg

    Is there a specific way this should be done?

    Thanks!

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    In this context, yes, you should mute open-string notes once they have reached their full value.

    Later, in your own music, you might decide - ala Bill Frisell - to let open-string notes ring over subsequent notes, for effect. But when reading a written part, you should stop the note once it has been held for its written value.

    Also, learning to stop open notes from ringing is an important skill to develop.

    You can use your right-hand fingers to stop a string, especially if you are playing fingerstyle. I prefer to use left-hand fingers so I can use the same technique whether or not I’m using a pick. If the string is adjacent, like your example, I might let my finger touch the G string when I press down the D on the B string. Or I might use a different finger to stop the string by lightly touching it without pressing down. In your example I would touch the open G string with my first finger while I play the D with my third.

    Enjoy - reading is not drudgery, it’s fun, and part of being a total musician!

  4. #3

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    Stop it with your other left hand fingers, or your right palm. Don’t buy one of those silly headbands

  5. #4

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    Lifting the left-hand fingers will often cause a small but noticeable buzz. Using the right-hand fingers, palm, or side of the thumb is all part of the technique of playing well and plying the rests, as it were. Max points out a very cool technique in letting an adjacent finger touch the offending string, but it's not easy, like everything else on the guitar at first. One of the hardest things for players to do is to listen to their playing, especially when reading. But it's always good to spend some time playing memorized things or improvising and really listening to your tone, your attacks, your intentions.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by paintblob
    Hey there,

    I'm new here (I wrote more about my background when I introduced myself) and I just started out in William Leavitt's Phase 1 book. I have a technique question: when playing a note that is an open string, followed by a note on a different string, it seems to me like that first note should not continue to be heard after that second note started. With non-open string notes I don't find this much of a problem, as I just mute it by taking most of the weight off the fretting finger, but what to do with the open string note? Should I use the palm of my right hand to mute it? I find it quite difficult to do this without cutting it short, or without losing awareness of where my right hand/the pick is.

    These 2 bars are a good example. After playing the G (open string) in the first bar, I play a D in the second bar. By then, I can still hear the G.

    Question regarding technique (Leavitt Phase 1)-question-jpg

    Is there a specific way this should be done?

    Thanks!
    It's a great question. You've already got some answers. I'll add this. Open strings sound great but are harder to control. So, one approach to making sure that G has its full value (and no more) is to play it as a fretted note, say, 4th string 5th fret. That is, for some passages, it makes sense to avoid open strings even though you need to find a new fingering. For other passages, open strings may be exactly what you want -- and the length of the note is a major issue. The sound of an open string is another.

  7. #6

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    Some jazz players consider the use of open strings to be very unskilful and prefer to fret them. They don't like them because, as you point out, they can ring. However, many good players are quite happy to use them when the ringing sound is deliberate and creates a desired effect.

    Joe Pass, who is unquestionably a jazz player, used them quite a lot because he wanted that sound. Here he is doing it in the first few seconds. Also, at 1.17, he does his favorite trick of letting a bass string ring.



    But in the normal run of things a ringing open string is undesirable if it conflicts with other things you're doing, like playing runs. In your example picture, the next note after G is D which is on the next string up. That means the G will inevitably ring unless it's controlled. But who wants to worry about damping ringing strings that you don't want ringing? It only becomes a nuisance. So I'd play that G on the 4th string, 5th fret, as someone else suggested.

    Personally I have no phobia about open strings. Say I have a run like this:

    Question regarding technique (Leavitt Phase 1)-untitled-jpg

    Obviously the first open G won't ring if you immediately fret the next note up on that string. But it will also not ring if you play, say, the second A because your finger will come across and mute the open B before it without your trying. Same with the second open G and the next note F on the 4th string.

    But a lot of jazz stuff is in flat keys anyway, not in open keys like G, D, E, and so on, so the problem doesn't arise that much.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by paintblob
    Hey there,

    I'm new here (I wrote more about my background when I introduced myself) and I just started out in William Leavitt's Phase 1 book. I have a technique question: when playing a note that is an open string, followed by a note on a different string, it seems to me like that first note should not continue to be heard after that second note started. With non-open string notes I don't find this much of a problem, as I just mute it by taking most of the weight off the fretting finger, but what to do with the open string note? Should I use the palm of my right hand to mute it? I find it quite difficult to do this without cutting it short, or without losing awareness of where my right hand/the pick is.

    These 2 bars are a good example. After playing the G (open string) in the first bar, I play a D in the second bar. By then, I can still hear the G.

    Question regarding technique (Leavitt Phase 1)-question-jpg

    Is there a specific way this should be done?

    Thanks!
    Using the Apoyando technique, the fingers of the right hand automatically mute the open guitar strings and another elongated sounds.
    Apoyando - Wikipedia

  9. #8
    Wow, thanks for all the replies! That's very helpful. Yeah I realize it can be used to your advantage, like Bill Frisell and Joe Pass do in such a beautiful way.
    So there seem to be many techniques to stop the string from sounding.

    I did naturally develop I way to do it when it comes to adjacent strings: when moving to the string below the current one, I tend to use the side of my right thumb to mute the first note, and when I go up a string I use the upcoming fretting finger to mute the string below. So when going from an open G string to a D (on the B string), I use the side of my right thumb to mute the G string. The way you do it, Max, seems much harder to me, but I guess that comes with practice. With adjacent strings, I find it the most difficult when going from one open string to the next, because then a left hand finger has to be dedicated solely to muting the first string when hitting the next note with my right hand - so then the technique you explained, Max, seems to become necessary.

    I actually think the example I posted wasn't the best one, as I find it even more difficult when it's about non-adjacent strings, like in the last 2 bars of this:

    Question regarding technique (Leavitt Phase 1)-phase1-added-barlines-jpg


    The only option I see here is muting the open E string with one left hand finger while playing the open G string with another left hand finger. Maybe muting the E string with the right hand palm is an option too, but to me it seems impossible to do (and keep time) at this point.

    Ron, I agree about the importance of listening, that's why I try to record as much as I can - I know from playing piano how deceiving it can be to only hear yourself while your playing, and I feel like it's even worse with guitar, as I have less control when it comes to tone.

    rpjazzguitar and ragman1, it's reassuring to read that it's not all that bad to avoid open strings when necessary. At this point in the book though, for these exercises, I'll have to deal with 'em in some way
    Love that Joe Pass video, thanks for reminding me of it. Speaking of Joe Pass, it seems somewhat easier to me to deal with these kinds of problems when playing fingerstyle, because there's so many fingers available on the right hand. Might just be that I'm more used to playing with fingers though.

    Kris, I see how that could help sometimes but, like in the example above, I'm not sure how rest strokes could help with that. It only mutes the string below the string that was just played, right?

  10. #9

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    "Kris, I see how that could help sometimes but, like in the example above, I'm not sure how rest strokes could help with that. It only mutes the string below the string that was just played, right?"
    Right.
    I don't know why you want to muffle the strings on your guitar. Don't you like playing legato?
    f.ex The strings are not muffled on the piano, they sound. In compositions for classical guitar, the notation is often simplified, so you need to find the right fingers to make it sound like a 'piano'.






  11. #10
    Well, it's not that I want to muffle the strings on my guitar, or that I don't like to play legato; what I meant is that when I want to play a half note, I want to play a half note. When I play that half note on an open string and then move on to a note on another string, I have to somehow stop the first string from sounding if I want to keep that note's length at a half note.

    With a piano, the damper takes care of that: the strings are not muffled as long as you're pressing a key, but as soon as you release that key, the damper comes back down on the string to stop it from making a sound. Playing everything with the damper pedal pressed would sound horrible.

  12. #11

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    Sorry - one last thought. Have you thought whether it's meant to be ringing?

    It's written in a sort of folk/classical style, as for classical guitar. It's not jazz and I don't think it's supposed to be. Little pieces like this are actually enhanced by ringing. If you remove the ringing effect it's just notes, one after the other.

    Listen. Isn't this nice?



    See what you think. It's possible you're barking up the wrong tree altogether with this muting stuff (and so are we).

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by paintblob
    At this point in the book though, for these exercises, I'll have to deal with 'em in some way
    Not in this way you don't.

    Look, if that 3/4 piece is the sort of exercise you're doing then it really doesn't matter whether it rings or not, as I've tried to explain. You're getting over-analytical and hung up on muting when you don't need to. The point is to play and understand the music, right? If you're trying to play jazz then, like I say, you'll soon be playing in closed positions anyway.

    As long as this book is giving you open and adjacent strings, just play them. Honestly, don't waste your time on the inessential, just get through it. Muting as a distinct technique is for classical guitar (and probably electric too because the notes can hum). Don't get sidetracked, it's not worth it, really. Just play the notes and move on.

    (I'm assuming, of course, that the book isn't instructing the player to mute).

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by paintblob
    Well, it's not that I want to muffle the strings on my guitar, or that I don't like to play legato; what I meant is that when I want to play a half note, I want to play a half note. When I play that half note on an open string and then move on to a note on another string, I have to somehow stop the first string from sounding if I want to keep that note's length at a half note.

    With a piano, the damper takes care of that: the strings are not muffled as long as you're pressing a key, but as soon as you release that key, the damper comes back down on the string to stop it from making a sound. Playing everything with the damper pedal pressed would sound horrible.
    The guitar is a harmonic instrument and hence there is a problem of muting the string when playing the melody correctly.
    This applies not only to open strings.
    I often use my right hand thumb for muting open strings / fingerstyle and pick /.
    Playing on two adjacent strings-I often raise a little, for example, one finger of the left hand so that the sound does not fall to the next layer of note.
    Hope this help.
    Attachment 89803
    Attachment 89805
    Last edited by kris; 03-18-2022 at 04:07 AM.

  15. #14
    Thanks ragman1 and kris!

    Yeah ragman1, that example does sound nice, thanks a lot for recording that. It's not such a problem with this piece, as it doesn't make it sound bad, it was more that I thought that that might be the case in other pieces. But of course, then you could just select the notes elsewhere, so you're not using open strings.

    I think you make a good point about me getting over-analytical about this, especially because, like you mentioned, I'll soon be playing closed positions anyway. And then using open strings can just be a deliberate choice whenever I want to have the note ring on. The book isn't instructing the player to mute, but it's pretty minimalistic instruction-wise anyway.

    Thanks Kris, that's helpful. Muting the open string with my right hand thumb works well when I move to the next adjacent string beneath it; when I move to the string above it, I can mute it with the fretting finger. I find it most difficult when moving from an open string to a non-adjacent string. But like ragman1 suggested, I'm probably overthinking this.

  16. #15

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    Based on my reading of his other books, Leavitt is pretty precise with his notation. If notes are meant to ring together they will be written out as such. Muting is hard, but I believe Leavitt does intend that students work on that so that over time that skill requires less thought. Which isn't to say you should get hung up on it - just that once you can play the notes and you feel good about it, perhaps when you review material do a pass where you focus on muting.

  17. #16
    Thanks swannod, that seems like a very reasonable way to approach it. Do you have a lot of experience with Leavitt's books?

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by paintblob
    Thanks swannod, that seems like a very reasonable way to approach it. Do you have a lot of experience with Leavitt's books?
    I don't know about "a lot of experience" but I picked up Leavitt's Modern Method about 3 years ago. I've worked through the contents of Volume 1 two or three times. Now working on Volume 2. Because I enjoyed the first volume so much I also picked up the Melodic Rhythms, and Classical Studies books.

  19. #18
    Cool. I really like how all the pieces have been composed specifically for the book - it's one reason for me to prefer this method to Mel Bay's, for example. I'm still struggling a bit with reading the triads though, as I feel like I'm just recognizing the shapes (on the sheet music) more than reading the actual notes written in it, which feels different from when I'm reading music while playing the piano. It makes me feel like I'm cheating, as I'm just not quick enough yet to find all the notes of the chords on the guitar at once yet, while reading and playing broken chords is much easier.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by paintblob
    Cool. I really like how all the pieces have been composed specifically for the book - it's one reason for me to prefer this method to Mel Bay's, for example. I'm still struggling a bit with reading the triads though, as I feel like I'm just recognizing the shapes (on the sheet music) more than reading the actual notes written in it, which feels different from when I'm reading music while playing the piano. It makes me feel like I'm cheating, as I'm just not quick enough yet to find all the notes of the chords on the guitar at once yet, while reading and playing broken chords is much easier.
    I find it pretty challenging too. Leavitt starts covering the major keys and triads in all positions in Volume 2, however I found this approach far, far too dry on its own. The Classical Studies, specifically the Bach Inventions, made reading the higher positions compelling for me.

    I've recently found Leavitt's chord melody pieces and those are great for reading chords in higher positions.

  21. #20
    Thanks for these recommendations, I'll keep them in mind for when I'm a bit further along