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Though I think Christian was joking. Epiphone is Greek, Martin is German.
Originally Posted by KingKong
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12-25-2022 04:02 PM
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Yeah the Anglo Saxon thing always strikes me a bit odd, as if the Norman invasion never happened. I mean we were literally conquered by a French speaking aristocracy! Linguistically English is more like Saxon-Norman innit? It’s not like most of us can just pick up Beowulf and read it untranslated. Originally Posted by KingKong
But no one likes William the Conqueror, and everyone feels a bit sorry for poor old Harald… and given the ruling class didn’t even speak English for hundreds of years etc…. (In fact the Anglo Saxon kings were pretty game of thrones apparently, nasty murderous double crossing bunch, not all Bede and Alfred the Great.)
As far as DNA goes it’s afaik far from clear the Anglo Saxons were really Saxon either. Theories differ but it does appear it was more a change of culture and leadership than people. It’s very odd because almost all our place names are Saxon and those that aren’t are Viking. But there’s no real sign of the genocide or the displacement of the existing population that would seem to suggest, which was always the most obvious explanation. (Forgive me if this is a bit outdated I read this 10 years ago or soemthing.)
In any case IIRC it’s only around 20% of genes in the English population that can be traced back to the Anglo Saxons….Last edited by Christian Miller; 12-25-2022 at 04:41 PM.
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The language thing is that English is basically 2 languages superimposed on each other, Saxon and French. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Notice how we have posh ways to say stuff and 'rough' ways....
I am going to 'look' at some guitars....
I am going to 'observe' some guitars.
When English speakers want to sound posh we use more french words, a direct hangover from when French was the language of the ruling class and Saxon that of the peasants.
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Don't fret it.
Many exceptional guitarists never used the dots.
Blind Boy Fuller, Doc Watson, Jeff Healey, Blind Willie Johnson, Jose Feliciano, Johnny Hiland, Blind Lemon Jefferson, and Blind Willie McTell come to mind.
And there's no need to count 'em, as an open A string will guide one to the A on the D string's 7th fret in the darkest of nightclubs. From there it's only a short hop to the Bb. A good hand, well practiced by scales and arpeggios, can find its own way around without ever sneaking a peek.
On bass, the Simandl method trains the hand to flawlessly navigate without the need for markers. And there are no frets 99.9% of the time. In fact, the bass is a dot-less instrument.
On guitar, I am not biased against fret markers. No anti-marker am I. They look good, especially the block or block with a diagonal through it. Sadly, my inexpensive but sparkling little Epi JP only has dots. But, as I prefer to play seated with the fretboard somewhat facing the ceiling, I find it exhilarating and strangely satisfying to execute the grips in and out of the marker pattern. But I don't depend on them and prefer to play without twisting my neck to the side.
A dot can be a useful thing,
But a dot-less guitar may sorrow bring.
Many ancient guitars only mark the fifth, seventh, and twelfth frets for the purpose of string tuning.
The first, third and ninth fret markers, and those above the soundboard, may have arose later as bling. Maybe they sold faster. No doubt that guitar aficionados felt less complete beside their piano brethren who enjoyed a contrasting keyboard (by colour and placement).
The master waits at his table,
Pork, Beef, Fowl, Poultry, Mutton
The servant works his field,
Pigs, Cows, Birds, Chickens, Sheep
Reduce your carbon footprint
Plant one foot in a politician and reduce government
::Last edited by StringNavigator; 12-25-2022 at 09:57 PM.
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A great example of this distinction can be found in Melvyn Bragg's book, The Adventure of English. He mentions the many instances where livestock tended by English-speaking farmers (ox, sheep, calf, deer and pig) took on French-based names when consumed by the aristocracy (beef, mutton, veal, venison and pork). Originally Posted by KingKong
EDIT: I see that StringNavigator beat me to the punch.
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A brief history of Martin dots
1833 Martin was established
1898 5 7 9 first appearance
(after first 65 years without)
1902 5 7(1) 9
1906 5 7(2) 9
1932 5 7(2) 9 12(2) 15
1932 5 7(1) 9 12(2) 15
1939 5 7(1) 9 12(1)
1946 5 7(1) 9 12(2) 15
1978 5 7(2) 9 12(2) 15 17 (DM-18)
Last edited by pauln; 12-25-2022 at 10:13 PM.
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Or latin, the language of religion and the law which was even more high falutin, and maybe more associated with the clergy/intelligentsia of the Middle Ages? Originally Posted by KingKong
It’s more complicated of course. Short, conversational words are not all of Saxon origin. But yes, that’s what they taught me at school. A lot of Anglo Saxon words have of course fallen out of use.
But not everywhere- in the north east ‘bairns’ for children and so on. I remember reading that some of the rural Northumbrian and iirc Lowland Scots dialects have a great deal more AS in than most modern English dialects.
I notice Americans quite like their latin - instructor or educator instead of teacher, for example. In formal music education the more Greek or Latin the better! Transcription instead of ear-learning and so on.Last edited by Christian Miller; 12-26-2022 at 05:52 AM.
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Why the markers? I never thought this is a question at all.
Why are they in that particular positions? ditto.
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That's why I reminded that Martin never thought about markers for their first 65 years. Originally Posted by Gabor
Once the cat is out of the bag, the particular inlay position question must arise for sure.
People have already noticed the banjos have the dot at the 10th instead of the 9th fret.
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AFAIK, the main criterion of assigning languages to language families is by basic grammar, syntax and stuff, rather than by vocabulary. Originally Posted by KingKong
English clearly is a (West) Germanic language, and always has been.
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"A great number of words of French origin have entered the English language to the extent that many Latin words have come to the English language. According to different sources, 45% of all English words have a French origin.[1] " Originally Posted by palindrome
From here: List of English words of French origin - Wikipedia
So yes it's a Germanic languages on basis of grammar and syntax but with almost half the words from french.
So I think to say that it is germanic Saxon with French superimposed is a fair way to describe it.
Also don't forget that french is a romance language, a direct continuation of vulgar Latin, so it explains a lot of the Latin words we use also.
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Agreed, even though perhaps "with French _words_ superimposed" would be more accurate. Originally Posted by KingKong
But impressive, to be sure. A bit like the fretboard of a Les Paul Custom with those big block inlays superimposed.
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English is a West Germanic language on a dialect continuum with Scots and closely related to Saxon and the Frisian languages. English has many words of French and Latin origin in its vocabulary. English does not have French or Latin grammar.
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^Except when you say notary public
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Yes, that is how I understand it as well. Originally Posted by Litterick
Also, in addition to the West Germanic base, I guess there are distinct elements of Old Norse that run deeper than any Romance contributions, and very probably Celtic contributions which are, however, not well understood.
Another conventional wisdom seems to be that many of the Latin-origin words have undergone considerable shifts in meaning following their introduction to English, not quite comparable to analog developments within the Romance languages themsevels.
(Everything off the top of my head; not making any of it up, but all of it having been picked up somewhere from credible sources along the way. Never ask for examples!)
PS. I think I have heard the analytic-versus-inflective thing being POSSIBLY attributable to Celtic influences.
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You can eat mutton but not a sheep.
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I think the whole subject is fascinating, especially with the spread of English all over the world by the empire.
So for example there are Chinese kids in Singapore learning old Saxon and Norman French as their native tongue, it's crazy when u think about it.
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When you're unable to speak other languages, the others speak yours.
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The Classical Guitar and the Lute are remarkable for having no markers to mark neck positions. However, in the middle of Carcassi's Classical Guitar Method (1836) it is stated that, "Positions 1, 4, 5, 7, and 9 are the Principle Positions on the Classical Guitar and practicing the major and minor scales and chords therein is sufficient for learning them." It then states that each neck position is named by the fret number under the index finger. However, since Carcassi's time, guitar fingering was largely changed over to Tarrega's fingering method.
The modern guitar may have inherited its fret marker system for frets 5, 7, and 9 from Carcassi and his peers (Sor, Aguado, Carulli, Giuliani, ...) without much further thought involved, except that Frets 5 & 7 are in tune with the adjacent open strings and Fret 12 contains the octaves of the open strings.
Most jazz boxes have frets 1,3,5,7,9 blocked, which organises fingerboard navigation rather well - almost pianistic, with the Fret 3 marker added to create a balanced visual pattern. Most of us would prefer 1,3,5,7,9 to 2,4,6,8,10... They're especially helpful when switching from GM6 in Second Position to E7 in Fifth Position. Even numbered markers would be more of a distraction than the odd numbered scheme.
Of course fingerboard patterns should be practiced until they become "mental forms", in the fingers, brain and ear, rather than visually being pecked out on the fingerboard. Visual fretboard cues can't help much while reading written notation.
As for the banjo... My Plectrum Banjo is tuned differently: C G B D. The 10th fret contains A E G# B. The notes A & E are an important grab. More often required than the 9th fret's Ab Eb G Bb.
Tenor is C G D A and a tenth fret of A E B F#.
Bluegrass is g D G B D and a tenth fret of e B E G# B.Last edited by StringNavigator; 01-06-2023 at 05:47 AM.
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It is odd that guitar have markers to indicate where the frets are located
(right next to the frets) while instruments of the violin family, with no frets have no markers where the frets would be.
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Could it be because a violin has a much shorter neck and typically isn't used to play chords. I starting with the violin when I was 9 years old and continued until high school. When I ditched this for jazz guitar (after hearing Blow by Blow, so RIP Jeff), I was happy to see frets and markers on the guitar. It just saved a lot of time. I.e. the first year or so on violin was just learning to play in tune! Originally Posted by whiskey02
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Originally Posted by EastwoodMike
That would make the first string F!
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My wife is a violinist who taught in a public school. When first learning, they lay a thin strip of tape across the first few positions for guidance. Originally Posted by whiskey02
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I also play jazz plectrum banjo. Same thing, 10, not 9. Whenever I first grab the banjo, it's confusing. But after a few tunes it settles in. The problem is in pit work, where I often go back and forth between guitar and banjo. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Yes it would. Ask Tom Quayle if it works. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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