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Hi forum! I’ve been studying Leavitt’s Modern Method for a while now (currently midway through book 2). These books advocate position playing of scales - the hand does not shift up or down the neck when playing a scale in any given position. If you need to reach up or down a fret to grab a note, it is done by stretching the 1st or 4th finger. (See below)
Meanwhile, in many other books/websites, scale shapes are often shown in a way where the hand shifts position to play the scale. See below for an example from the 1st book of the Jody Fisher series (have only skimmed the book so far).
I was curious if folks on the forum have any opinions on whether there is a “best” way to play the scales, or is it just a matter of personal preference? Or should you learn them both ways for different situations (and if so, when would you play it one way vs. the other)?
Leavitt scale:
Fisher scales:
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02-26-2022 06:30 PM
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I split the whole diatonic pattern into three slices and was happy to not get confused anymore (when trying to make sense with 5 splits before).
But they kinda mixed together as whole and now I don't even care about it. I bet if you play enough, they start make sense and click seamlessly into eachother.
It can take a good long while though.
edit: oh. what I meant by that. Just opened the whole thing, looked it as a whole and tried to connect all the parts of the scale... hm. like this:
diat.jpg - Google Drive
and here for diat, alt and harm and different kinds of layouts: degreeQuiz
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I don't know if this is a rant or just a minority view ...
Why does it matter?
You aren't going to be playing scales in the course of a music career.
And, if you were, no matter which way you did it, there'd be one player who does it that way faster than you, and another who does it a different way, also faster than you. I say that with an apology to the very fastest players in the world, for whom my statement isn't true.
So, when you decide what music you want to make, you might consider whether the scale fingering you practice will make any difference.
In real life, you're playing a line somebody else wrote or one you're making up. If it's somebody else's line, you have to find the fingering that works at full speed -- which may or may not fall into a scale pattern. Depends on the notes. If it's your improv, you can make great lines any which way.
I do a lot of reading in my musical activities and I often find myself problem solving to arrive at a fingering that works for a fast passage. I know scale patterns (3nps and other) but I absolutely never think about them when I'm reading. Rather, I'm looking at the line and working out details. Usually, it's finding a fingering that will facilitate the right hand. Like, putting the right number of notes on a string to allow a pull off -- thereby giving me a 16th note's time to reposition the pick. Or, finding the position shifts that make the line playable. Or, incorporating a quick use of an open string to avoid jumping over a string with the pick. The idea of assuming that I can play somebody's line by adhering to a practiced scale fingering doesn't ever occur to me.
You want to sound like Wes? He used three fingers for his single note improv, with a lot of hand movement. Arguably, the greatest jazz guitarist, but I'm going to guess that he wasn't a speed demon on scales, what with using his thumb.
How about Django? Two fingers. Lots of open strings and movement. Also, arguably, the greatest jazz guitarist.
Charlie Christian? Furthest thing from a modern speed demon and all downstrokes. And, of course, arguably, the greatest jazz guitarist.
Chuck Wayne -- he did use 3 notes per string and had a system of scales, arps and chords that took advantage of it. Economy picking. 3 notes per string works well with economy picking, but not so well with alternate picking. So, it's not even just a decision about the left hand. It's an even more fundamental decision about the right hand. (I'll stop here with the greatest jokes, but that may not be fair to Chuck, who was an incredible player).
Jimmy Bruno in JBGI taught stretching, generally towards the nut, when stretches were needed. Apologies to Jimmy if I've got this wrong.
I don't know to what extent Jimmy used scale patterns in improv. I'm pretty sure that Warren Nunes did. At least, his books suggest it.
So, it's typical of jazz guitar. Great player did it one way. Another great player did it a different way.
Sorry for the rant, which I guess it was.
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Well I don’t think there’s such a thing as a “best way” regarding fingerings. I would suggest for you to experiment with every available possibility.
Leavitt and Fisher fingerings are great, but experiment also thinking about stuff like scales starting with your 1st, 2nd and 4th finger. Also four note per string (for example, g major: 6th string: g, a, b, c. 5th string: d, e, f#, g and so forth. For this I always switch positions with my index finger, but there’s also the Holdsworth approach, using one finger for each note).
So the sky is the limit. There’s also other aspects such as phrasing. Some lines might sound better or can be easier to play with one fingering over other.
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Great stuff guys. I kind of expected to hear that experimentation is the real key, but it’s good to hear it from people who are experienced! I’m still working on taking the patterns and piecing them together as a whole rather than sum of the parts. I feel like this will give me more possibilities.
I’m just starting to get brave enough to try to “play jazz” starting with simple major blues progressions. I find that when I’m improvising, I’m not really thinking about the patterns as much as I am about the chords, and what notes I can use around the chord tones. Some times those extra notes fit nicely within the patterns I’ve learned, but not always.
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Don't look for "one right way". Learn all the ways that work for you: if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. If you know more than one way to think about something, you can make choices instead of being restricted by your limitations.
My $0.02: Finish the Leavitt book so you know how to play all scales using one system. Then you have some context that will inform investigations into other approaches. (I've never actually seen the Leavitt book; I'm just saying "learn one system first.")
Don't forget that the goal is to play music, not scales.
You might want to make learning all arpeggios your next goal after learning one approach to scales. Arpeggios are chord notes.
Once you have learned a scalar approach and an arpeggiated approach, you should have a very strong grasp of how things fit together, both in sound and on the fretboard. You'll have a lot of context that will make it easier to acquire additional knowledge.
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Fwiw, I’m prety sure that Jimmy Bruno’s 5 major scale patterns are exactly the same as Barry Greene’s 5 major scale patterns. Good enough for me.
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I've got a great book called "Joe Pass on Guitar." It also has an accompanying DVD with A bunch of major, minor, dominant, and ii V I licks, played by Joe and transcribed in the book. Also transcribed are performances of Stella, ATTYA, and a Blues played by Joe. I highly recommend the book, not only for that, but Joe spends considerable time on the DVD talking about how he thinks about playing guitar. He discusses how he keeps all the technical information organized in his thinking. That stuff for me was invaluable when I was a beginning jazz guitarist, straight from the mind of a virtuoso musical genius.
Also, on the DVD, he mentions the CAGED forms repeatedly. When he talks about it, he gets an edge in his voice, to emphasize the point, saying, "I use the CAGED forms." He repeats that several times on the DVD. He's talking about the chord system and the scales for developing lines. Coming from him, that's enough said on that subject for me. You can also learn other forms if you like, but I would listen to Joe and master the CAGED forms, first.
The caged forms were designed to be the most convenient to play on guitar. Many of the forms have a section where you have to shift one fret to make the fingering. It's better to just shift your wrist slightly to move up or down one fret than to stretch all out of position as with other scale forms. Joe agreed with that and said it himself.
PLUS, the CAGED forms match very nicely with the arpeggios shapes. In other words, you can clearly visualize the arpeggio shapes right within the CAGED forms, which IMO is very important. Here's one of the best pieces of guitar playing advice I got from Pat Metheny. He said that you should practice improvising on tunes while limiting yourself to just the arpeggio's, as an exercise. He said that "a good player can come up with lots of interesting stuff to play, just based on the arpeggios of the chords." Integrating that into your thinking and playing helps you sound like you're actually playing the cadence's, rather than just vaguely noodling around in a key center. I practiced that a lot when I was learning, and it really did help me learn to play lines, utilizing all the scales, that sound major, minor, or dominant within a key. Though, sometimes, sounding vague on purpose can be a thing too.
Last edited by James Haze; 02-27-2022 at 08:14 AM.
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If you want to be TOLD WHAT TO DO, then CAGED is the system for you.
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Just to be clear, "shifting the hand", does that include shifting the thumb? I've got a violinistic habit of doing short-term 1-position shifts with my thumb remaining behind. My teachers seems not to like it (but gives me a lot of leeway).
Re: CAGED: I understand the idea, but not how you're supposed to use it (beyond helping to figure out what chord I'm playing)
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Whatever feels comfortable for you is what I would say on that question.
Since the OP is about the scale forms, here are the 5 CAGED scale forms. From left to right as pictured: phrygian, mixolydian, aeolian, Ionian, and dorian. If you were in the key of G, root note 3rd fret 6th string, it would go, Ionian, dorian, phrygian, mixolydian, aeolian. It's good to know the scale names, so that if someone says "A dorian" you know what they're talking about.
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Caged forms look awful close to Bruno and Greens 5 positions to me.
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Proper shifting means better sound and execution. Here's a video that explains proper shifting techniques that will maximize sound and execution when playing scales or executing position shifts. This is taught to beginning CG students and applies directly to Jazzers who want to perfect their technical game.
Marinero
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"The 'Shape System' relates melodic ideas to basic chord shapes instead of relating them to endless scale patterns, modes, and arpeggios. In addition to being an efficient use of practice time, this system allows the player to sound more natural and musical instead of sounding like somebody playing scales." ~ Herb Ellis.
That said, I also use these:
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that’ll be the G, C, E and A shapes. So, you’re still using CAGED. It’s all the same.
Originally Posted by Tom Karol
That said, I also use these:
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I'm a fan of Mick Goodrick's "unitar" concept, which posits the guitar as 6 individual instruments side-by-side, and encourages learning to play scales, modes and melodies along one string. Great for LH technique, because you have to shift, and working in different keys and modes creates intelligent shifting. It also is an effective way to free yourself of position patterns at will, thus developing a less guitar-like set of lines as well as maintaining a tonal color control (that may be more important to classical guitarists). It is not a replacement for Leavitt's system or the CAGED system (not unrelated, by the way), but it does expand your possibilities. Before I retired from teaching, I was giving beginners little familiar tunes along one string, which made it much easier for them to read in higher positions, in the long run, and generally reduced their "fear of heights", as it were.
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I learned the CAGED chords and scales a while back - they definitely helped me understand the fretboard better than when I only knew barre chords. The Leavitt scale shapes are a bit different since they stretch instead of shifting, but they’re pretty similar and I still tend to think of his scales in terms of CAGED chord shapes.
The common theme I’m hearing from everyone here is that scales are important, but how they relate to chords is the real key. That’s how I’ll keep approaching it. Thanks!
As a final note on the Leavitt books - I think they’re fantastic. My playing and understanding of the guitar has improved significantly since I started working on them. I think they’re great for improving technique and fretboard understanding (and note reading too). They don’t really teach you how to apply what you’ve learned to improvising over Jazz tunes though (at least not yet), but I think they’re giving me the tools I’ll need.
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Leavitt fingerings are really helpful to learn the neck -- they provide clear mental map for a given position, middle and ring fingers are fixed, everything relates to this stable point, rules which finger frets what are simple, you learn both by ear and physically which interval is where.
When I read something for a first time, like learning a new lick, I'm using the Leavitt fingerings because they are easy on the brain and you don't have to look at the neck. When relating things to chords (I too think that they are not that different from CAGED) I tend to use chord grips which are close to the Leavitt layout - like for a C-scale in 2nd position I would keep middle finger on root and do a minibarre with pinky (instead of digits 1 and 3), I understand and remember better this way. When a phrase is internalized one can switch to a more natural fingering for the sake of phrasing or pure convenience.
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Leavitt fingerings and CAGED are more similar than different. Think of one system as a being a variation on the other.
If you’re working through the Leavitt books, then stick with it. They’re great books.
In the long run, you will learn many scale fingering variations including CAGED and 3 notes per string. There’s no reason to rush into them though.
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Hey, hey, hey, as long as it's a person's free choice then it's okay, because you don't have the right to tell a person what to do. Play what makes you happy, that's what I do. Originally Posted by Litterick
I hate when people tell me what to do, because I'm a free spirit, a bit of hip a flower child, actually. The only person I let tell me what to do is my woman, because she's that special to me. I'm very chivalrous.
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for new players learning the illogical nature of the guitar (standard tuning) is a study in it self..
scales are a mechanical finger pattern..that end after the last note of the scale is played .. not very musical..
but with repetition you will learn the pattern..learning the notes of the scale is a separate study ..
and then learning the intervals of the scale and all the variations-melodic patterns and then learning it in different positions and string sets
the many different ways to learn scales..each having some pros and cons - all ways should be explored !
knowing the fretboard and note locations becomes necessary if you want to play anywhere on the fretboard and not feel "lost"
the necessity of learning scales in ALL keys and positions is the way to fully understand the illogical nature of the fretboard
Alan Holdsworth was to have said..learning a scale takes about two years..and from a certain point of view I agree
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This may sound like a troll, but it's a real question. I really don't get this. Thanks in advance for an answer.
Suppose you already know the notes all over the neck.
So, you know, instantly, where every note in a Cmajor scale is (as well as every other scale).
At that point, why would you need CAGED, or any other set of fingering diagrams?
How, exactly, would they be helpful?
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This is supposed to make things easier? Originally Posted by James Haze
("Mistress, I don't have that many fingers?!")
But is it? The fact something like the CAGED system is possible would suggest otherwise! Originally Posted by wolflen
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The better you know notes in scales, chords and on the neck - the better (obviously) . Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
But for the ear (not speaking of the absolute one) it is, for example, 2-1-3-5-7-6 what makes sense, not D C E G B A, which would be different in another key.
When playing by note names, there are extra steps involved - knowing the role of the name in the key and then selecting it on the fretboard. Shapes establish tonality and one goes just by ear-hand (or hand - ear, let us admit) connection.
I'm honestly trying to learn the notes in the scales etc, because I see how it it useful. But for me it is no-brainier, every time a play something long enough, note names disappear from the consciousness and only sound - physical connection is left.
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@rpjazzguitar: I knew the whole neck cold before I learned CAGED, as well. Consider that any chord in any key can map to any of the CAGED scale positions based on where you view the root note dots. Thus, I use CAGED like a muscle memory crutch: it's a way to visualize the dot pattern for any scale in any position instantly. I am not really a position player, but the use of CAGED dot patterns makes it easier to visualize scale patterns as I float between positions, if that makes sense...
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