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Mistress?
Did somebody say Mistress? 
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02-27-2022 04:52 PM
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Both absolutely great players and outstanding teachers of jazz guitar. I still remember exactly where I was, many moons ago, the first time I heard Mr. Bruno on the radio, his playing impressed me that much.
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
It really is a feather in your cap that you know all the notes names on every fret cold, that is a good thing for a musician to know their instrument like that. Now to your "I'm not a troll" question Mr. Nixon, LOL. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Seriously?
Okay, why do scientists use E= M x (CxC), or the other equations of Einstein and Isaac Newton? Because they explain the physical laws of the way nature works in mathematical terms that we can then utilize.
These musical tools we talk about are "the science of music" or "the math of music", that musicians utilize to make music and to understand how music works. Music is really all about relationships, That is understanding the relationships between root notes, intervals, chords, scales, arpeggios, keys etc. This information / math that we call music theory helps us to keep all that information organized and to understand and see all those myriad relationships etc. Understanding all of those musical tools actually gives you knowledge, power, and freedom to create good music, that you may never have thought of from musical ignorance. Einstein named his theory "The Theory of Relativity" because everything really is related, music is all about relationships, too.
When you think about it, it took thousands of years for gifted intelligent musicians, who were probably more gifted than any of us babbling on this forum, to come up with what we know today as music theory. But, if you want to start from scratch and develop your own completely new thing for yourself to explain all the relationships of how music works, go right ahead.
The Giant, Joe, said that he used the CAGED forms. I don't know about you guys, but that's enough said on that subject for me. That being said, whatever scale forms float your boat, work for you, feel comfortable to you, and you enjoy playing, use those. That's called freedom of choice, and I'm a HUGE proponent of that
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Last edited by James Haze; 02-27-2022 at 08:29 PM.
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Thank you. I think I understand. My approach is mostly different. I know the chord (in the tune I'm playing) and its function. So, I know tonal center and chord tones. I know where those notes are all over the neck. Typically, I'll play one and then build melody from there, mostly by ear, but with some awareness of chord tones and tonal center. It wouldn't typically occur to me to think about patterns when I'm moving up and down the neck, except maybe for some very obvious chord shapes. Originally Posted by starjasmine
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Originally Posted by Pedrocouto
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I grew up with piano, where there was a clear right way to do most things. I’ve taught myself guitar and it seems there are many acceptable ways to do any. Here’s my way.
For each major or minor scale, I practice each in the 5 CAGED position patterns.
I also practice 3 octave scales, in two patterns (one starting on the 6th string, the other on the 5th). The 3 octave scales help pull together the CAGED patterns in my mind, since they’re constructed from CAGED fragments.
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Eventually all these patterns are all seen as part of the Unified Pattern of Diatonics. As the Unified Pattern is shifted up the neck for different keys, the positional block patterns fall off the end of the fingerboard and re-appear at the nut.
As I see it, Leavitt patterns, CAGED, Bruno and modes are all just slices of the Unified Pattern. There are other patterns in between that overlap. We use various shifts to move through them from the nut to the other end.
It's a system for knowing where all the notes on the fretboard are for a given key.
It's just a map. Horn players for EG have to learn a different map for each key. We just have one big map that shifts around the fretboard for different keys. And we have different overlays for our map: modes, Leavitt, and so on.
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Exactly, they're all just musical tools to help organize all the musical information. What you do with them to create interesting improv is where the creativity and musicianship comes in. Originally Posted by ccroft
Look at me coming in here to talk about scale forms, and then I go on this long explanation about Einstein and relativity, LOL. That's me, I'm always going on blathering about something or other from at least a slightly different angle. Hopefully someone got something useful from it, maybe?
Actually, though, Einstein could read music, had a great appreciation for music, and could play the violin beautifully. So besides his scientific genius, Einstein was also a talented practicing musician, so there's that.
Einstein jamming:
Well there's something you don't see every day.
...and we all keep plugging away, and hopefully we hit some good notes in there somewhere. Have a nice day
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I've been classically (though never formally) trained since I was about 7 but that 2nd part is unfathomable for me. For me a scale is a run of 8 subsequent notes, someone care to explain exactly how you play those with your fingers in one of the CAGED patterns? I can imagine you take one of those patterns, chose a finger and string and then play the scale moving your hand so the finger hits the scale notes on that string, but what's the point of doing that? Originally Posted by BigDee62
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I went to Berklee for a couple years and spent a lot of time in the Leavitt books. The in-position focus is mainly for sight reading purposes. It makes it easier to sight read when your left hand is anchored in one position. I find that for improvising, playing lines or solos, it hinders rather than helps. Phrasing works much better when you're not restricted to playing in position.
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Post 11 has the fingerings. You’re overthinking this. The fingerings are “the whole scale” as in across the neck, low E to high e. Originally Posted by RJVB
If you go to a lesson, tryout, or jam and someone asks you to play the major scale and you plunk out 8 notes, you failed the test.
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I hope I am (if not I don't see how anyone could improvise using "this"). But post 11 only makes things worse for me; those diagrams could just as well show the fingerings for 5 entire pieces. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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you don’t improvise with this, you practice it a few minutes a day so you know where the right notes are. Originally Posted by RJVB
Improv and knowing which frets to use are related, but not the same.
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when teaching someone new to music in general and guitar in particular .. you must remind yourself how you felt playing your first chord / scale..
what seems easy now was a vast complex of finger movements-sounds-and memory..all out of context of what music is..
so when I show someone a major scale between the 2nd and 5th frets ..they see MANY more frets than that..and the name of the notes on which frets.. with what finger?
so some methods were developed to make the learning process easier (really?)
very much like teaching how to bake a pie..only your just going to bake one slice of it so you have to alter the amount of ingredients and the bake time
ok do you want to impart only a little knowledge about scales or begin with an overview and review that several times--
the major scale is seven notes..but is part of a chromatic scale that is twelve notes
so for the CAGED system..could the omitted pentatonic scale be incorporated in it..would it not be a more complete understanding of how to use scales
so for the C Major scale..the Db Pent scale would complete the chromatic scale..at least introduce this information
Db Eb Gb Ab Bb
This is my approach..some say it helps them ..YMMV
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How refreshing!! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
B.Katt
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To continue the rant ....
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the impression that people learn the dots-on-grid patterns (5 or 7 of them, typically) so that they can find the notes they need. So, if you decide, say, to play Eb Ionian, you know 5 dot patterns that will tell you where those notes are. Eventually, you know the patterns well enough that you can move freely from one pattern into another.
Does this mean that if I point to a random string/fret you have to think about it to know what the note is?
Or that, to play Eb major, you have to join one of your dot patterns with the correct finger so that you can find the rest of the notes?
Not a troll. I'm genuinely curious if this is correct for many players. And, it's not a criticism. I believe, for example, that my teacher, Warren Nunes, thought and played that way. Using the same finger for the same place in a pattern has the advantage, I should think, of facilitating speed, depending, of course, on what you're trying to play.
I couldn't do it that way. I found it impossible to memorize dots on grids. And, I didn't need them to find the notes, because I already knew where they were (from learning to read from my first lesson). And, if I did learn a pattern, it was hard to enter the pattern in the middle. I could never reach a point in solo where I could play a specific pattern starting on a random note within it.
Much later, I memorized the notes in each major scale (relative minor comes along for free) and each melodic minor scale. I memorized the standard usages. And, also, the notes in the chords I use. 12 keys. This permits playing anywhere on the neck starting on any finger. No root bias. It's a lot of work, but it seems to me that it's less work than trying to memorize dots on grids.
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strict position playing is very good for kiddies and I suppose students who really need a strong system; this finger, this fret. You kind of need that for a lot of young students. Originally Posted by dcontoyannis
Hi forum! I’ve been studying Leavitt’s Modern Method for a while now (currently midway through book 2). These books advocate position playing of scales - the hand does not shift up or down the neck when playing a scale in any given position. If you need to reach up or down a fret to grab a note, it is done by stretching the 1st or 4th finger. (See below)
Meanwhile, in many other books/websites, scale shapes are often shown in a way where the hand shifts position to play the scale. See below for an example from the 1st book of the Jody Fisher series (have only skimmed the book so far).
I was curious if folks on the forum have any opinions on whether there is a “best” way to play the scales, or is it just a matter of personal preference? Or should you learn them both ways for different situations (and if so, when would you play it one way vs. the other)?
Leavitt scale:
Attachment 89140
Fisher scales:
Attachment 89141
Beyond that i don’t really like strict position playing; I don’t think it lends itself for the best approach to fingering things in a logical, flowing way. Trying to play bop in strict position for instance is a really good way to convince yourself you can’t play bop (while Dave Cliff can do it all with three fingers and lots of shifting.)
Even scales sound better - more musical - with lots of shifting.
i also think people can get a bit into the habit of seeing things as a kinaesthetic fingering rather than notes on the neck. That can make players a bit inflexible.
However it can be useful for reading, if makes you more automatic that can be useful. But then sometimes it’s not so good to be automatic like when playing a melody .
i have practiced positions. But it’s also good to practice playing on one string.
As to which is best, I would go with what feels comfortable at first. I prefer one octave scales that you can link up rather than multioctave positions.Last edited by Christian Miller; 02-28-2022 at 07:34 PM.
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Allan was a fast learner tho Originally Posted by wolflen
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If I’m playing in Eb I’ll play around the 6th fret and that’s about all the thought I give to the label’s. If I want to target something, say the 3rd, I know where that is. I’m not thinking about my music like an old time stock ticker of notes.
And, if you came up to me, pointed at a fret and asked what note it was I would start laughing. That doesn’t happen in real life.
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The question comes down to whether a player knows the fingerboard or not. I could have made the point in reverse. If you are asked (say, by a chart) to play a certain note, do you instantly know all the places where that note exists on the fingerboard, or do you have to think about it? If you play in situations where you are called on to read standard notation, this happens in real life. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
And, if you knew the fretboard and the notes in the chords and scales you use, would you bother learning dots on grids?
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The thing to remember is that there are actually 12 notes in a key or tonal center. You should have all 12 notes available to you for your improv at all times. All 12 of those notes are in the key and relate to the key in a different way. Meaning, they sound different in relation to the key, each of the chord functions within the key, and further, in relation to the chord subs within that key.
How each of those tones sound over all of those functions should be learned so thoroughly that you can recall whatever sound you hear and feel whenever you feel it will benefit the line. From there, with all 12 notes available at all times, you start playing exactly what you hear and feel. Now you're truly improvising, not relying on some scale pattern, but in control, and playing whatever you hear and feel.
I mentioned math in an earlier post. At this point, it really is more fruitful to think of the notes as numbers instead of note names. I really don't care if the note is named Bb F C F# G A or whatever. What matters is the number, the relationship between that chord function and that interval number. Could be a 3rd, b3rd, perfect 4th or 5th, b9, #9, #5, 11th, etc., etc. Now you're thinking relationships, something musical.
With all 12 notes available at all times, when you can start playing whatever hip, interesting sounding phrases, you're hearing and feeling from moment to moment; Ayyyyyyyy, ayyyyyyy, when you can do that, then you will have learned grasshopper, then you'll be truly improvising. It isn't just running your fingers through your cute little major scale pattern.
I don't think I can take any more of this thread, so I'm going to bounce and go hit the record button. We'll probably meet again in another thread. Have a nice day and good luck with your music
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For me, no and no. For less-studied players, possibly yes. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
For me, dot patterns were an entry point to mapping muscle memory to audiation.
I don't really think about knowing where each note is; I internalized that long ago as part of learning to read. But the first step to that was understanding how the chromatic scale maps to the fretboard including where notes repeat.
I learned to play guitar by ear and then mapped standard notation and dot patterns onto what I already had in muscle memory and aural recogntion.
But I first learned sight-reading on trumpet, before I knew any theory or had much in the way of guitar chops.
So my current skill set could be seen as the produt of "cross-training" as a sight-reading horn player and a by-ear guitar player.
As I pursued my music degree, those cross-training connections became quite well-articulated. I became a reading guitarist with a much better ear and much better mechanical technique. I learned some piano, a ton of theory, and additional approaches to LH and RH technique. So I really don't approach anything as being "one right way" or "the best way" anymore. Trying to get right-hand technique together really broke me of that attitude - I spent over a year just working on picking. I'd find a technique that allowed me to do things I could not do before, and think I had finally gotten there. And a week later I'd find my new technique not up to the task of some new thing I was trying to master. So now I really just use everything I have, all the time, and kind of allow serving a musical intent to surface the correct knowledge. I can play in position, float between positions, and start any of those patterns on any finger as necessary. (Agree that position playing greatly simplifies reading, but you also have to know when and how to switch positions, or when and how to figure out a fingering for a particular passage that might have nothing to do with any previously memorized positional or dot-pattern approach.)
Whatever works for you is fine for you, and the more ways you can think of something, the better. If dot patterns don't work for you, cool. I kind of hate TAB and prefer standard notation by far. But some folks hate standard and prefer TAB. To each his own.
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Caged and other positional systems where the student memorizes dot patterns across the fretboard are great for scale noodling over the changes without addressing each chord. But I think it's very cumbersome to learn playing the changes with these systems.
I learned the Caged and various other systems many moons ago but what helped me with the ability address each chord was to focus on one octave patterns. Learning intervallic relationships between a note and the notes one octave above and below it was the most useful think I did w.r.t. the fretboard. All you have to do is to get good at a musical concept within a two-octave range. Then the whole fretboard opens up for that concept as the patterns just repeat everywhere (adjusting for the tuning). You can almost instantly start working on applying the concept to tunes. Symmetries are wonderful things and the guitar has lots of them. They are also great for ears.
Regarding learning the notes, I'm a slow reader but I have instant knowledge of the notes on the fretboard. I have never heard anyone who learned the notes on the fretboard say that knowing the notes wasn't useful for them. Otherwise people would just forget the note names eventually, but that doesn't seem to happen.
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This is a thing I got from the missus who's a cellist, didn't know Jimmy taught this. I use this all the time for beginners - they tend to get stuck around the nut, so you tell them to finger a D on the B string say and stretch back for the C, works pretty well. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I think stretching towards the nut often works better than the opposite. There's a tendency for the fretting hand to sort of plant itself from the index finger; I think that's a problem I have inherited from position playing.
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I think this articulates the process as I've found it really well. Originally Posted by starjasmine
It's always evolving - for instance, recently I've been getting used to those charming overringing scale fingerings you get in modern classical guitar editions - sound great on a tele, and hopefully by learning this stuff in Bach it will end up in more improvisational areas.
As far as notation goes, I too prefer notation. I'm not the best reader out there, but TAB is quite alien, I just don't use it much. TBH if it's guitar stuff I learn it by ear and if it's a chart I read notation so it[s more that it's not a part of my musical life. I use it for students though.
I wish there wasn't tab in a lot of books. I start kids off reading but worry about students becoming deskilled as they progress through the Rockschool grades. At least with me I started reading as a beginner so notation was never unknown to me, so hopefully that's how it is with students. Teaching students to read is unfashionable perhaps, but for me a sort of hippocratic duty almost.
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You raise an excellent point that I sort of forgot about... I use CAGED as a way to identify scale patterns that contain the CAGED arpeggios. But I really almost always conceptualize everything in terms of arpeggios. So CAGED dot patterns are a way to map arpeggios back to scale-fingering choices. A way to find the "connecting tissue" between arpeggios. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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