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Hi,
first post so please be gentle :-)
I'm a complete beginner , who at 70 years old decided it was time to learn guitar....So a month ago I decided I to buy a guitar and amp so I could learn blues. Was recommended and bought a Squire Classic Vibe 50's guitar and a Fender LT50 amp. Signed up to Justin Guitar and Guitar Tricks and started their lessons. In the meantime, I started really listening to a lot of guitar music, and discovered JAZZ, and love it! Decided that I needed a teacher so I didn't learn any bad hbits that I would have to unlearn later. Was recommended a teacher, who was a local and very popular, found out why when I had my first lesson - loves jazz...shifted me away from learning chords and strumming to scales and plucking individual strings. Simple stuff for a beginner, but he then used those scales to play some really nice stuff with just those elementary scales. Very happy with him as a teacher, but not so happy with my strat for jazz tones :-(
The strat is great for blues but just sucks at jazz, so looking at getting a guitar more suited to jazz. I'm in Australia, and the secondhand market sucks - people want silly money for guitars, so I'll buy new. Looking for recommendations to look at. I've been lucky enough to be loaned a MIM Telecaster that has a better jazz than the strat , but also thinking about a semi hollow?? Bad back stops me from going to a full hollow. Interestingly I tried a Gretsch semi hollow and found that it was much easier to fret chords than my strat, or the tele - 12" radius vs 9" ?? Slightly wider nut?? Is this a common experience.
I'd really like some suggestions to look at - price wise between a Squire and a MIM Tele - prices here are much more expensive than in the US.
TIA
Gary
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02-02-2022 06:39 PM
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Greetings. An Epiphone would probably be the best value for a new semi-acoustic. I looked at the websites for Guitar World and Musos Corner in Newcastle. Sheratons, Casinos and Rivieras are available at prices comparable to a good Mexican Tele.
The secondhand prices on Gumtree are ridiculous.
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If you can get yourself to a music store it might be an idea to try out various shapes and weights before buying anything.
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Complete beginner and already gassing
for a second guitar!
You are hooked.
Its not about the guitar but I understand your desire. A Telecaster is a wonderfully diverse instrument.
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Bring your amp to the next lesson and ask your teacher for help getting a jazzier tone. You have an insane amount of tonal options with the strat and the amps tone controls.
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Thanks for the replies! Iif I could get the tone in that video I would be happy, but haven't managed to do so yet....an yes I am gassing big time :-) so many pretty toys to look at....... In the meantime I have come across a reasonably priced used Ibanez AS153 at 60% of new price, sounds nice, a suitable jazz guitar?
Gary
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Jazz is a style of music, you can play it on any guitar.
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I guess you can play it on any guitar, but I can't find a whole lot using a strat, the video above was the first I'd really seen of a strat with a nice jazz tone. I think if I had bought a tele first, I would not be searching for something else. I love the sound of my borrowed MIM tele, but I can't keep it forever (friend won't sell it to me unfortunately despite him having 13 other guitars). I think I'm just not in love with the strat sound.....
Gary
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Change the neck pickup to something besides a single coil such as a humbucker, mini humbucker, or humbucker sized P90.
Then your guitar will be suitable for any style. Listen to all the tones this guy gets. I think this is the most versatile pickup configuration possible btw. Strats have incredible jazz tone if you put a beefy pickup in the neck position.
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Which pickup would you recommend? Agree that guy sounds great but it's a tele?
Gary
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I would recommend a humbucker if you want it to be full fat, and either a humbucker size P90 or a mini humbucker if you want it to maintain some bite for bluez. Yes, I know how he's playing a semi hollow tele, but strats are great for jazz if you use jazzy pickups.
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It sounds like whatever you do you need someone to set you up with lower action- no sense in making the journey any harder then it already is. Ideally it should be a joy to pick up and play and fretting chords shouldn't require any awkward stretches or pressures. A good setup is critical, imho. You could easily make due with what you already have. But more is always fun...
I'd go for a semi-hollow for sure (Epiphone was a great recommendation if you want a multitude of options for the price). Ibanez and Eastman make some really nice semi's for not a lot of bank also. Then you still have a guitar that you can crank up for blues/rock. If you go full hollow its going to feedback if you crank it. If you get another solid body you'll always be wondering what kind of tone you could get if you had an acoustic electric to play on. There's no replicating that quality on a solid body.
Play with the neck pickup or the neck/middle if you have the option.
Try flatwounds if you haven't already. Moving to flat wound strings will have a much more noticeable impact on your "jazz tone" then almost any other variable. Pus they feel like butter.
Cheers.
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Also agree with the flatwound suggestion.
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I'd recommend sticking with what you have for now, and trying as many other guitars as you can to get a sense of how things sound and feel to you. Youtube videos are very rarely realistic because of the vagaries of how people record them, and are never a reflection of how something sounds when you play it. So it's really problematic to use them as your main guide to figuring out equipment until you've got some experience with different stuff under your belt and can calibrate what you see/hear online.
Originally Posted by garymck
I have an American Standard with the stock Fender pickups, which many people would say is a bad choice for jazz, but it really isn't. I do have other guitars that I use more often for jazz, but for a long time the strat was all I used, and I still use it sometimes. I actually took it to a jam a couple of weeks ago and was really happy with the jazz tone I got out of it, and it's just a really comfortable and fun guitar to play.
I find that the key to getting a fatter, jazzier tone with it is to turn the tone control way down (e.g., to around 2), but not all the way down, turn the amp up pretty loud (to the point of break-up), and push the mids up on the amp as well*. I then manage overall volume with the guitar's volume control, and if necessary (since turning down the volume on the guitar also rolls off highs) bring the tone control on the guitar back up a bit. In general, people will advise you to do something similar to get a jazz tone out of pretty much any guitar. But the key here is that, since a strat neck pickup has a more scooped sound than other styles of guitars, you have to take the steps that accentuate mids and introduce compression to more of an extreme than with, say, a Tele or some other solidbody with P90s. This same lack of mids that can make for problematic clean tones works in the strat's favor when you crank the amp a bit -- you get sustain and compression to fill out the sound, but a lot less distortion than you do from a more mid-prominent guitar. But it's tricky to bring this out, and impossible with some combinations of guitar and amp.
* on amps with only bass and treble controls and no mid-control, that means turning bass and treble all the way down and turning the volume up. It's a little counter intuitive, but it works.
What flavor of strat do you have, and what amp are you using? With that info, you may be able to get some more specific tips here.
OK, on the assumption that you're ignoring all the "stick with the strat advice" ... Yes, an AS153 is a suitable jazz guitar, as are most semi's. Originally Posted by garymck
Last edited by John A.; 02-07-2022 at 10:52 AM.
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Another super easy solution is to get an eq. A simple $20 behringer 7 band eq pedal will allow you to get that tone. It doesn't matter how thin the strat pickup is because you can just crank the lows and low mids and adjust the highs to your taste. Originally Posted by garymck
However, yes it is nice to have different guitars for different purposes. Epis are nice, they do a good job of getting a jazz tone.
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Strat can do almost anything... and definitely Strat is more versatile guitar than Tele.... though Tele just has its own charm for me and there is also kind of tradition of Teles in jazz.
I played cheap Strat for a few years - it was my only electric guitar. And I played only straightahead jazz... I do not say that the tone was fantastic but it was quite jazzy.
I also like Strats possibilities to mix in some high-end clarity.
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Originally Posted by garymck
Your instruction seems well in hand; our members are generally a helpfu and encouraging group. Enjoy your journey! 
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ES 335 based semi hollow. Tons of good ones out there within your budget.
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Semi hollow (335 styles) or thinline fully hollow (330 or Casino) can be great. A tele with a humbucker. Try a few guitars to figure what appeals to you. Epiphone, Guild, D'Angelico, Squier and Ibanez have some great options for not too much. Japanese Gretsch. Eastman.
Buying used, mainstream brands, mainstream models in mainstream colours is the best strategy for getting your money back if you change your mind or decide to upgrade.
A setup is very important. I see beginners getting discouraged with great guitars because they are not set up in an optimal way for what they are trying to do. Would be nice if you had an experienced friend that could show you what the adjustment options are and their effect.
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The AS153 would work very well as a jazz guitar. . Give that demo a listen. Originally Posted by garymck
Another possible Ibanez choice, since you said you have back problems, is the AMH90. Small sized, almost fully hollow, pretty good sound, very lightweight. Around US$700 in the USA.
Also look at PRS SE Hollowbody Standard, SE Hollowbody II, and SE Hollowbody II Piezo. All lightweight. All sound good. From US$1000 to US$1500 in the USA, don't know Australian prices. Because of their shapes they might hang better on straps than the Ibanezes if that's a problem.
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Mate, I’m in Australia too and feel your pain.
It took me a few years of just trying to learn guitar and different styles of Jazz and different artists before I developed a desired tone enough in my head to then go sink money on hardware optimised for that tone.
ALL suggestions are valid, but remember not all styles are optimised by any one design. You may well find yourself trying to play Freddie Green hollow body comping but you bought a solid body.?
You will also find a 3.5” deep hollow body may not ergonomically work for you or your shoulders. A thinline might work better here.
if you have a desire to join a local stage band you may find feedback and volume a challenge. I still take my Strat to weekly ensemble night after work ‘cause it travels well in the heat of a car, cuts though easily and is pretty bulletproof. You can still get good tone out of it- maybe not concert grade but easily good enough.
I’d say let your Gas settle a year or two before changing and specialising. If you are a rank beginner you may well find your tastes adapt and change as you go. You have more than enough right now on your plate before agonising over gear!
The last section of JustinGuitar intermediate course with the Jazz into was what hooked me in!
cheers, welcome to the show and good luck !
EM
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Thankyou for all the replies and suggestions. After a lot of watching of videos and listening to music I decided to purchase a second hand telecaster. I got a 2019 MIM Tele in tobacco sunburst in absolutely mint condition with a gig bag for less than 50% of new price. I LOVE this guitar and haven't touched my strat since I've had it. My teacher tried it and commented that whilst in his experience MIM's were variable in quality, I had bought a very good one. With a bit of tweaking of amp controls we got a very nice tone.......Happy now :-)
Thanks again
Gary
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[QUOTE=garymck;1178154]Hi,
first post so please be gentle :-)
I'm a complete beginner, who at 70 years old decided it was time to learn guitar....
The strat is great for blues but just sucks at jazz...,
I would disagree. A Strat might not be optimal for Big Band-style comping, but some considerations will get you closer than where you are. I also saw you bought a used Tele. The following apply to either. The reason that the Gretsch was playing easier is probably in the set-up of the truss rod and bridge height. It probably had a heavier gauge string set than the Strat did, too. For most all straight-ahead jazz, you will not be using a tremelo (whammy bar).
In any case, if you have access to a knowledgeable guitar tech, take the guitars and have them properly set up with the strings you settle on (see #3 below).
#1 - Use a stiff guitar pick (plectrum). You are likely playing with a very flexible one, and your tone will always sound thin with such a pick. I personally use a Clayton 1.9 mm teardrop shape pick - it is small, about 22 mm from tip to back. It has a moderately rounded tip. Definitely get away from thin, flexible picks. Your tone will always sound thin until you use a stiff (basically cannot bend with your fingers) pick. It also will help with your picking accuracy.
#2 - Use only the neck Pup, roll your tone control all the way off/down (no suppression of lower frequencies), and dial your amp tone control down significantly. Run medium volume level on your guitar, and adjust amp gain for final volume. If your amp has effects, turn it all off to start. Use a thick pick (plectrum).
#3 - Least expensive things to try first - Try a set of d'Addario Chromes (flat-wound) strings (or any other flat/tape wound strings). The Chromes are available in 10, 11, 12, and 13 sets (the number refers to the diameter of the high E string in thousandths of inch, i.e. "11" set will have a 0.011" diameter high E string). The ECG23 "10s" will have the lowest tension, and may fit your nut slots without enlarging them. Using a heavier set might require the nut slots to be filed (special nut files, see guitar tech) to a larger radius so the strings don't bind while tuning. The bass side strings on the heavier sets will typically have a slightly darker tone, but may not be as noticeable on any solid-body guitar. You may have other brands of flat-wound strings available to you locally, and I don't think brand will be significant for this experiment.
#4 - Try changing the neck pick-up to a humbucker-style (mini-HB) that will fit your top plate without modification. All the major makers make these pickups that should fit your top plate without mods. Seymour-Duncan has two ("Vintage Rails" and "DuckBucker) that are $US90 that might be a good starting choice. Consult your instructor or guitar tech about choosing). Prices on other brands start at about US$75 to well over $200. You don't need the best top brand unit, just a good one. Make sure that the poles (if equipped with adjustable ones) are properly adjusted for even volume balance across the strings. A decent guitar tech can do this, or there are instructions online about how to do it yourself.
#5 - I don't know if anyone makes a rosewood or ebony wood-top bridge for either of these Fenders, but that will also knock the brilliance down a bit compared to the metal bridges.
#6 - Amps - The least expensive will be a solid state model, possibly with tube amp modeling capability. Most jazz players do not run any type of "over-drive" to create waveform distortion. What you probably want is a reasonably warm, clean sound. Many amps might be suitable, maybe the one you have (not personally familiar). I wouldn't be looking at amp alternatives until you get a years worth of instruction, knowledge, and playing skill under your belt. That way you can test different amps side-by-side and have confidence the differences you hear are from the amp, not your playing.
#7 - Guitars - You have your first two. Maybe the Tele will work out for you, maybe you want something else. A good compromise will be a semi-hollow, such as a Gibson ES-335 copy (unless you have the bucks to buy the Gibson and want that headstock). Many current makers sell 335 copies. If you choose to investigate alternatives, set your budget first, then look at 335-type models within your budget. Don't forget to allow for several sets of strings and a good initial set-up (most mid- to low priced models will need some work when they come out of the box/case).
I hope this helps. Best of luck.
Randy
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Thanks Randy for such a comprehensive reply full of useful suggestions ! Will discuss options with my guitar teacher who plays jazz and blues professionally. I know he thinks my second-hand MIM tele is a first rate instrument (he said that in his experience they are variable in quality), but I also know his favourite jazz instrument is a 335. I'm getting over my initial GAS infection :-) so I am going to wait a bit before spending any more money..
Thanks again,
Gary
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Gary,
I'm 63. I started working on guitar in about 2005. Work and other tasks kept me from significant daily practice, so messed with it off and on until about 2014. Pretty much didn't pick up a guitar until end of Feb this year. Now I'm trying to put in a minimum of 2 hrs practice daily, 4 if I can manage.
Try and be patient. Keep working at the basics until you get them pretty solid. I'm sure your teacher has some type of plan for your advancement. Play for a while several times each day if you can. That will likely yield the best results.
If it is a traditional jazz sound you are looking for, aka Wes, Joe Pass, Kenny Burrell, etc., try a heavier (to your ability) set of flat-wound strings first. You may need a little set-up work as I mentioned, and see where that gets you.
I'm not familiar with your amp, but maybe your instructor is, and can assist in finding settings to get that clean jazz tone you are looking for.
If that is not satisfactory, changing from the (most likely) single coil neck pick-up to a mini-humbucker-type substitute may get you closer.
All my best,
Randy
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