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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    I still think the underlying point stands, even as an adult you don't learn a new language by leaning all the rules first. You learn bathroom, hospital, and maybe hotel (similar to a few chords) and then have at it. Is it better to dedicate 10 years to learning Italian before you visit Rome? It might be, but you'll probably lose interest in the language before you ever use it due to lack of well, using it.
    I think we're both saying the same thing, just differently. I'm definitely going to give Baker's book a try. I'm still getting value out of the beginning Fisher book so will finish that first.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    I may be projecting another conversation onto this. My good friend is trying to learn jazz academically, by that I mean, learning all the scales on paper, then how tones resolve with each other and what a tritone substitution is defined as. All before actually playing anything. While I'm fine to do a single Mikey Baker lesson a month and learn 2 tunes.

    He sounds better than I do.

  4. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    I may be projecting another conversation onto this. My good friend is trying to learn jazz academically, by that I mean, learning all the scales on paper, then how tones resolve with each other and what a tritone substitution is defined as. All before actually playing anything. While I'm fine to do a single Mikey Baker lesson a month and learn 2 tunes.

    He sounds better than I do.
    I'd be on your side of that argument. The fretboard knowledge I'm trying to gain is only one part of a balanced practice routine.

  5. #54

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    For over a century, Plectrum Banjoists (4 strings) have been notorious for taking a chord and playing its inversions up and down the neck while injecting Passing Chords in between them. The effect can be devastating to all within ear-shot! How could they have possibly known that someday, someone would invent this?! Remarkable... Here we have the legendary Eddie Peabody on the plectrum banjo demonstrating his EP System.



    It all reminds me of the clever lad who took the five movable barre chords C, A, G, E, and D and copyrighted them as The CAGED System. For centuries classical guitarists had used them, but apparently the "youngsters" who popularised the "geetarh" in the '70's didn't get the memo.

    It has been said that I, myself, am inventing the new Guitar Clock-Decoder that one can hang around their neck while practicing their modes. (You are practicing your modes, are you not? Egads, you Modalists are a clever lot!) As an aid to all guitards everywhere, the 12 secret, magic letters, when craftily decoded, will surely "predict" the chord progressions of a myriad of songs. I'm naming it the "Magic BEAD-GCF System"!

    All I have to do is explain it in such a way that nobody can possibly understand it. Why, it may take a few years at University to understand it enough so that you can't possible explain it to the uneducated masses. If I am correct, it may even become as popular as the Guitar Fingerboard DeMystifying Slide-Rule!
    Wish me Luck, Duck!
    Last edited by StringNavigator; 05-25-2021 at 02:21 PM.

  6. #55

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    Just for other Wallies and punters out there who may not know this, take a gander at this internet site:
    Bracker Whistles & Flutes - The Circle Of Thirds And Fifths


    It combines the circle of 5ths and the circle of 3rds on the same circle.

    Why memorise CEGBDFACE...? Easier Chord Spelling, Note Reading, and Chord Stack Reading.

    Why memorise Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B Gb...? Easier to play Cycled Changes, read the changes, use Key Signatures, find Tritone Subs and Relative Minors.

    Become an educated musician. Tattoo the Cycle of 5ths/3rds on some convenient part of your body for a handy reference.
    Last edited by StringNavigator; 05-28-2021 at 08:43 AM.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by StringNavigator
    ...
    Become an educated musician. Tattoo the Cycle of 5ths/3rds on some convenient part of your body for a handy reference.
    It looks nice, but for a guitarist it is much easier to look at or visualize fretboard to figure out tone relationship than to rely on something as abstract as this. I've learned the circle of fifths because I've been told so and it is totally waisted effort.
    Ultimately only learning all the chord/scales by heart is good enough, mnemonics may help in the beginning but not that much.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danil
    It looks nice, but for a guitarist it is much easier to look at or visualize fretboard to figure out tone relationship than to rely on something as abstract as this. I've learned the circle of fifths because I've been told so and it is totally waisted effort. Ultimately only learning all the chord/scales by heart is good enough, mnemonics may help in the beginning but not that much.
    Different Strokes, I guess...

    I use Chord Spelling often in my studies and practicing, when working with Drop Voicings and laying out the grips by string-set and inversion on the fingerboard. Chord substitutions (m7-5, m6, V7, VI7, o7, tritone subs, secondary dominants, upper structures...) most of which are really just common tone subs, makes chord spelling such a handy skill. Especially reading tall chord stacks in notation.

    Changes, of course, are mostly cycled, so jumping from F7 in first position to F7 in eighth position to avoid fingerboard runout, to reach the Bb7 in sixth position is greatly facilitated by knowing the cycle order, regardless of key, especially when back-cycling seven degrees. It's not always ii-V7-I. Also, mapping the fretboard to the staff lines and spaces. Or using the Cycle of Fifths to determine key signatures.

    I was recommending the Cycle of Fifths and Thirds, as one circle, to musicians who may not have been aware of it, rather than to those who have no use for it. I already know both cycles and find use for them in reading, dealing with voicings and improvising chord changes for chord-melody playing or composing.

    Also, when talking with other musicians whose instruments are non-visual, especially transposing wind instruments in Dixieland band arranging and improv. When the bassist(C one octave lower) speaks with the trumpeter(Bb), clarinetist(Bb) and trombonist(Eb), they better know their Musical Alphabet, Clefs, Key Signatures and Changes on sight. Dealing with musical scores leaves the visual aspects of the guitar behind. The Circle is often handy for communication between musicians in ensemble. Do not fear. One need not tattoo it on their person. That was just a joke. It's in your head once you understand/memorise it.

    All it is:
    Cycle of Thirds
    G B D F A C E G B D... adding sharps and flats as appropriate.
    Whether they are chord voicings or lines and spaces on the Grand Stave.
    (Almost a diagonal line across the fingerboard.)

    and
    Cycle of Fifths
    B E A D G C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb...
    the order of most changes and the order of sharps and flats in key signatures.
    (Almost the order of the fingerboard notes on Fret 1 and the open strings.)

    Bracker Whistles & Flutes - The Circle Of Thirds And Fifths

    As a retired, dedicated amateur, still more of an ear player than a reader, I intend to play visually and mentally and aurally and from the score with as many tools as I can manage. As I am balancing a few instruments (guitar, double bass, fretless and fretted bass guitar and plectrum banjo) I don't always have "frets" to visualise the fingerboard with. No frets, no dots, and often need to know in my mind and fingers without seeing the fingerboard or having many "landmarks" to use.

    In fact, the fingering and fingerboard patterns are directly imprinted with the Cycle of Thirds & Fifths. The trained Simandl hand moves along the bass strings on its own, with measured intonation, like a "caliper". They also have different clefs (F & G & C). And they all have different method books, so I need to know both Cycles well.

    It behooves any musician to memorise the Circle of Fifths and Thirds and see how they are the same cycle. That's why I added the URL above as a model for memorisation. Mnemonics like "Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge" only confuses and hinders one from buckling down to actual memorisation.

    It's of interest to note that many books depict the Circle of Fifths with the Sharp Keys on the Left and the Flat Keys on the right. Yet, many other books have that arrangement reversed. I always wondered why different books displayed it differently. Perhaps for the convenience of back-cycling... But the sharp/left and flat/right arrangement forces the Cycle of Thirds to be displayed in reverse order...

    Eventually, one must think in both directions, but to begin memorisation, start with EGBDFACEG first and save GECAFDBGEC for later.
    Last edited by StringNavigator; 05-28-2021 at 08:38 AM.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maroonblazer


    Am I doing it right?

    Thanks in advance!
    well...let's say there's an opportunity for improvement. It's not impossible to play this exercise almost completely in the given fingering, or even that difficult. It seems that way, because there's some missing information about how to use this scale fingering -- where to change position.

    Your left hand is all over the place, and it looks like you have little to no stretch between your index and middle finger. That stretch is something you want to develop, especially for this family of scale fingerings.

    The scale diagram is fine, it's a standard fingering. There are a few different ways of dividing the fingerboard into scale fingerings, optimized for sight reading or speed/fluidity or range. This is one of them.

    The pattern is a scale sequence, standard technique drill for any instrument. Rather than read through stuff like this, just identify the pattern and play it by ear through whatever scale pattern you're working on. This particular sequence is triad arpeggios with a passing tone between 3 and 5.

    OK, now the real hot skinny, the bird's-eye low-down. Try this --

    Think of "pattern 6/1" as having only one position shift; strings 6 to 3 are all in one position, strings 2 and 1 are in a position one fret higher. On strings 6 and 5, your index stretches back one fret.

    Try playing just the first two notes, C index, E pinky, your thumb more or less under the ninth fret. Your index finger will stretch back slightly to play the C, your pinky should land directly on the E. Your hand position shouldn't change at all. Next two notes, index stretches slightly for the F, middle finger lands directly on G. If you can't do that effortlessly, practice it until you can.

    For the next triad middle finger rolls over to D on the 6th string. And so on. No position shift, no ring finger until the F triad that starts on the third string. When you get to the F, 10th fret, 3rd string, play it with your index finger. Now you're in position to play the rest of the ascending sequence.

    Does Fisher give you any basic stretching, independence or "spider" exercises? If not a youtube search should turn up something, that would help you a lot. Kind of tedious to describe in text, though.

    Anyway, your immediate task is pretty clear, clean up that left hand. Break down the exercises into a series of drills, small chunks (no larger than you can play cleanly), metronome no faster than you can play cleanly, timer set to short time per drill (say, five minutes). When a drill becomes easy, turn the metronome up two clicks. If that's too fast, turn the metronome down one click. Easy peasy.

    There's no reason to trash this book, this is rudimentary learn to work the instrument stuff, neither "jazz" or "not jazz" -- which is exactly what you need at the moment.

  10. #59

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    hey Maroonblazer... if your still around, if you've decided to use a fingering system to eventually learn the fretboard. Great, the point is to finish the process.

    Not sure why SN was getting into Lydian cycle concepts , pythagorean intervals and tonal gravity, but is great topic and might be better used in the theory area....

    As Whitebeard was getting into... and stated, the Pattern is one of many standard scale sequences for practice.

    And they can be organized using the "Spider drills approach". Which would be playing in any position, like 6/1 or 6l4

    The organization is designed to develop dexterity and independence of fingers.... ( get your chops together and also helps with picking)

    You can just use the number name of each finger.... 1 2 3 4 and then use one of the fingerings and cycle the pattern or sequence.

    The exercise is generally use in just one position with no stretches... example

    Start in 3rd position...and just play 1 2 3 4 (no stretches), on low "E" string, then 5th string, 4th, 3rd, 2nd and 1st. Then back down to 6th string.

    I have a PDF somewhere on this forum...

    Anyway you then move on to the next pattern... 1 2 4 3

    Here are the patterns

    1 2 3 4....2 3 4 1....3 4 1 2....4 1 2 3
    1 2 4 3....2 3 1 4....3 4 2 1....4 1 3 2
    1 3 4 2....2 4 1 3....3 1 2 4....4 2 3 1
    1 3 2 4....2 4 3 1....3 1 4 2....4 2 1 3
    1 4 2 3....2 1 3 4....3 2 4 1....4 3 1 2
    1 4 3 2....2 1 4 3....3 2 1 4....4 3 2 1

    So the exercise can be use just as it is, and then also generally applied to string skips also. So you would also use patterns with 4 string groupings. Example would be the 1st pattern, " 1 2 3 4" would be played as above but using 4 strings.... 6th, 5th, 4th and 3rd, then 5th, 4th, 3rd and 2nd etc... When using arpeggio style application... you double the # of exercises... You would also add.... High to low strings, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

    After you've trained trained your fingers and get your picking together.... which takes 6 months to a year, you can apply these exercises to scales.... as in the Fisher pattern you posted. (can all be done together when organized depending on level of skills)

    Usually one would start with straight scales before arpeggios... the point being to develop the fingering pattern before developing variations. So you would play the...
    1 2 3 4 which would be in "Cmaj.", C D E F, then D E F G etc. then from patterns above, either go horizontal or vertical.

    You can apply the patterns to both Fingers or Notes from both scales and arpeggios... you can get as complicated as you choose, the point is to have an organized path of getting your TECHNICAL skills together. The drills are then applied or transpose to all the scales and resulting arpeggios.

    You develop Fingerings that will play whatever you or someone else wants wants without having to learn everything as something new. You have a fingering system designed to play all music. And this becomes your basic Fret board REFERENCE.... where you start from when playing anything. You can still and will use all kinds of different techniques and fingering, but they will all have a Starting Reference from which you start from.... nothing is New.