The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Music aside, the social aspect of the music is so important Miles called jazz ‘social music.’ Standards are a lingua franca. They allow the social music to happen.
    I am not making a general argument against standards but saying students should not feel obliged to play them if they don't like them. I think a lot of young people drop out of music because their teachers are dogmatic about what their students should learn.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    I am not making a general argument against standards but saying students should not feel obliged to play them if they don't like them. I think a lot of young people drop out of music because their teachers are dogmatic about what their students should learn.
    that never works lol

    All I have to do is to try and remember what I was like as a younger person...:-)

  4. #53

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    To put this in perspective I downloaded a sort of real book for baroque music ‘the baroque musicians book of grounds.’

    grounds being a repeated bass line you can basically jam on.

    TBH a lot of that stuff basically is vamps...

    but it amuses me how much stays the same. Tarantella and Chaconnes. Dance music.

    And then my friend Shirley spent a lot of time in East Jerusalem and turned up in London with a bunch of Middle Eastern tunes that serve the same function.... (the interesting thing about those is there is no harmony really; the material is the melody.)

    anyway some of my favourite music is basically on a repeated vamp. So not dunking on vamps but sometimes it’s nice to have longer forms. I’ve always aimed to write jam session tunes myself...

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    I think a lot of young people drop out of music because their teachers are dogmatic about what their students should learn.
    At my first pro lesson the teacher told me to go home and learn all the chords in all keys in drop two, drop three, drop two and four; plus all scales in dyads, triads and chords.

    Maybe the guy was a fool because I didn't return for over a year.

    When I did return, I heard him playing some fun things against a CD backtrack with another student.

    "Why don't we do that?" I asked at the lesson.

    "Forget it," he said, "that kid will never be a musician."

  6. #55

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    Actually that’s nicely put.

    if you actually want to play jazz professionally you do have to learn the things that will give you access to the community of practice. This may vary from place to place but there’s usually some sort of body of knowledge you need to know to gain access to it.

    For instance, if you want to be a professional jazz guitarist in most places you need to know a lot of standards. If you want to play original contemporary jazz you need to have great reading and musicianship (and if you are in NYC you have both.)

    But of course other people are perfectly happy to have fun, or simply not be a jazz guitarist and don’t want to be pro and that’s fine too

    So, yeah. Point being none of us set these criteria, they are rules that are present in the professional community, like them or not. So a teacher must advise the student based on the reality.

  7. #56

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    i think you dont necessarily need any knowledge as people here claim. all what you need is a good taste for music, a great ear and a very good technique. That at least will make you a good player. Look django he had the 3 things. so if for you music theory is boring, focus on the ear and to train your taste so you can get the results

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    Yes, but not many parents would be playing music of the thirties and, in any case, children tend to react against their parents's tastes.
    yes, and react against everything they say or do. it's called rebellion. establishing independence.

    but a lot of their parents' influence actually sinks in, no matter what the little brats say. biology.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by fingernylon
    i think you dont necessarily need any knowledge as people here claim. all what you need is a good taste for music, a great ear and a very good technique. That at least will make you a good player. Look django he had the 3 things. so if for you music theory is boring, focus on the ear and to train your taste so you can get the results
    The only knowledge you need to play music is embodied knowledge.

    ‘Tacit’ or embodied knowledge takes much longer than intellectual knowledge. The latter you can derive and learn quickly if you are intelligent. The former you can only learn experientially.

    Hence the ‘keyboard warrior’ effect lol. It just takes a lot of exposure. It’s also traditionally undervalued in society as it is generally the kind of knowledge associated with a trade and the apprenticeship system rather than the systems of qualification used in the professions. And despite the attempt to make into a profession, music is a trade. Musicians are always artisans, not always intellectuals.

    Embodied knowledge most definitely includes a connection to the instrument and ears. But you kind of have to know some songs in common with others to play with other people.

    Also being able to read? I mean reading is embodied knowledge. It’s not theory. You need to have looked at lots of music to do it and there’s no other way. No one learns to read in a weekend.

  10. #59

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    django reinhardt

  11. #60

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    Yeah sure Django.

    But actually also Ben Monder, say

    It doesn’t matter how much theory you do or don’t know. That’s a separate axis. It’s actually rather unimportant to the argument you are making.

    ALL working jazz players have masses and masses of trade knowledge gleaned from thousands and thousands and hours of playing music.

  12. #61

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    a mind is a terrible thing to waste

  13. #62

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    Back to the original post, you might find Barry Nettles’ The Chord Scale Theory and Jazz Harmony worth a look.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    a mind is a terrible thing to waste
    OTOH Music Theory isn’t very hard. So *shrug*

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The only knowledge you need to play music is embodied knowledge.

    ‘Tacit’ or embodied knowledge takes much longer than intellectual knowledge. The latter you can derive and learn quickly if you are intelligent. The former you can only learn experientially.

    Hence the ‘keyboard warrior’ effect lol. It just takes a lot of exposure. It’s also traditionally undervalued in society as it is generally the kind of knowledge associated with a trade and the apprenticeship system rather than the systems of qualification used in the professions. And despite the attempt to make into a profession, music is a trade. Musicians are always artisans, not always intellectuals.

    Embodied knowledge most definitely includes a connection to the instrument and ears. But you kind of have to know some songs in common with others to play with other people.

    Also being able to read? I mean reading is embodied knowledge. It’s not theory. You need to have looked at lots of music to do it and there’s no other way. No one learns to read in a weekend.
    This is how I think about this (and related things, such as songwriting and storytelling): 'embodied knowledge.' I like that term. Some philosophers make a distinction between "knowing that" and "knowing how." Knowing how might be called "embodied knowledge." You have to do things a lot. And if that is what one is after---being able to do something well---well, you have to do it a lot. I find theory interesting in a way---my mind is bent that way, you might say---but when I'm actually writing a song, I'm not thinking much about theory. I'm thinking one of two things: "Where am I gonna go next?" or "What if I don't want to go to the most obvious place next?" I just futz around until I find something that works.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OTOH Music Theory isn’t very hard. So *shrug*
    a valid point. and yet some would prefer having a tooth pulled as opposed to learning a bit of it.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by fingernylon
    i think you dont necessarily need any knowledge as people here claim. all what you need is a good taste for music, a great ear and a very good technique. That at least will make you a good player.
    Lil Hardin who was classically trained married Louis Armstrong.

    One time, after practicing six hours in his garage in East Elmhurst, he said to Lil, "Heh, listen to this!"

    She answered, "Oh yeah DEBUSSY!"

    "Well that's six hours of my life I won't get back,"
    he replied.

  18. #67

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    Where are the moderators?


    Gladders, have you checked out The Beginner's Guide To Jazz Guitar (Free eBook)?

    Best of luck.

  19. #68

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    This may help:
    Attached Images Attached Images

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anders1
    Where are the moderators?


    Gladders, have you checked out The Beginner's Guide To Jazz Guitar (Free eBook)?

    Best of luck.
    Yes I have, and it is useful. Thanks. I'm also finding Mickey Baker's book useful in getting a sense of the different ways to play a D7, say. That's what I'm missing. I've been an open chord player for years, where chords are simple - there's one Dm and if you're not playing that shape, you're not playing Dm. I feel all at sea playing chords I don't immediately and instinctively know the name of.


    I think the best approach is to enjoy playing as often as I can and pick up the tricky stuff along the way.

    Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karol
    This may help:
    Brilliant. Thanks.

    Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karol
    This may help:
    Super! Downloaded this one as well. Thanks

  23. #72

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    Oh man.
    No disrespect for anyone, but some of these posts are what run people off from ever getting into more sophisticated chords.

    OP, I can make this simple for you, they way I was taught at Berklee:

    1) learn the chords by numbers and as you get more familiar with the key signatures it’ll all fall into place.
    example: what’s an E13?
    R(root), 3, 5, b7, 9, 13. Same as an F13 if you go by numbers. Again the particular notes will come as you get faster with the key signatures

    2) you don’t need to learn a million chords. Start learning the numbers in the chords you know and then how to modify them (this is the key).
    example: the standard E-shape bar chord with the R on the 6th string is-
    R, 5, R, 3, 5, R. Say you want an add 9 chord, if you know the numbers you know how to make it an add 9.
    learn all your common chord shapes’ numbers and you’re well on your way!

    3) any easy tip:
    the numbering on embellished chords looks crazy complicated at first. But it’s simple: the highest number indicates that everything below it is included-
    a ninth chord includes: R, 3, 5, b7, 9.
    A 13th includes all that plus the 13.
    you get the idea.

    like most things in life, chords aren’t complicated, they’re just not often explained in a simple way.
    Have fun, more sophisticated harmony is so cool and rewarding.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6v6ster
    3) any easy tip:
    the numbering on embellished chords looks crazy complicated at first. But it’s simple: the highest number indicates that everything below it is included-
    a ninth chord includes: R, 3, 5, b7, 9.
    A 13th includes all that plus the 13.
    you get the idea.

    like most things in life, chords aren’t complicated, they’re just not often explained in a simple way.
    Have fun, more sophisticated harmony is so cool and rewarding.
    The observant student might ask why the 7th is flattened. The difficult student might ask why the dominant 7th chord is the default, not the major 7th, noting that we write C7 and qualify the others: Cmaj7, Cmin7 and so on.

    I learned chords as triads with other triads stacked on them (so a dominant seventh is a major triad with a minor third and another minor third). This does explain what is going on, although the numbering method is more simple to learn.
    Last edited by Litterick; 05-08-2021 at 06:21 AM.

  25. #74

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    OP's takeaway... "My main take-away is, don't worry about it. Just play. So I'll do that and let it all fall into place gradually. That suits me just fine."

    he's on his journey...

  26. #75

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    Well, that's all clear then.... I expect the original poster is looking for a gentler introduction! :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    You have an excellent head start from playing your horn; on the guitar, let yourself find things and figure them out (its really good for you), then look briefly and casually at the theory stuff periodically and see what you recognize of what you discovered yourself... let the theory naturally back fill your knowledge as you go forward (don't take it too seriously).


    That said, here is some reference theory stuff.


    Chord theory has two main parts; the construction of the sounds of chords themselves, and the way they form sequences of sounds to make songs.


    These chord constructions are rooted on C below, kind of spelled out for clarity - there are a few versions of the compact chord symbology which you will want to learn how to interpret (also, guitarists don't play all the notes, usually start dropping out the lower octave chord tones as the extensions and alterations are added into the upper octave):


    C Major (C E G)
    C Minor (C Eb G)
    C Augmented (C E G#)
    C Diminished (C Eb Gb)
    C Dominant 7th (C E G Bb)
    C Major 7th (C E G B)
    C Minor 7th (C Eb G Bb)
    C Minor Maj 7th (C Eb G B)
    C Aug 7 (C E G# Bb)
    C Aug Maj 7 (C E G# B)
    C Half Dim 7 (C Eb G Bb)
    C Full Dim 7 (C Eb Gb Bbb)
    C Dim Maj 7 (C Eb Gb B)
    C 9 (C E G Bb D)
    C b9 (C E G Bb Db)
    C #9 (C E G Bb D#)
    C Maj 9 (C E G B D)
    C Maj b9 (C E G B Db)
    C Maj #9 (C E G B D#)
    C Min 9 (C Eb G Bb D)
    C Min b9 (C Eb G Bb Db)
    C Min Maj 9 (C Eb G B D)
    C Min Maj b9 (C Eb G B Db)
    C Min Maj #9 (C Eb G B D#)
    C Aug 9 (C E G# Bb D)
    C Aug b9 (C E G# Bb Db)
    C Aug #9 (C E G# Bb D#)
    C Aug Maj 9 (C E G# B D)
    C Aug Maj b9 (C E G# B Db)
    C Aug Maj #9 (C E G# B D#)
    C Half Dim 9 (C Eb Gb Bb D)
    C Half Dim b9 (C Eb Gb Bb Db)
    C Dim 9 (C Eb Gb Bbb D)
    C Dim b9 (C Eb Gb Bbb Db)
    C Dim Maj 9 (C Eb Gb B D)
    C Dim Maj b9 (C Eb Gb B Db)
    C 11 (C E G Bb D F)
    C b9 11 (C E G Bb Db F)
    C #9 11 (C E G Bb D# F)
    C #11 (C E G Bb D F#)
    C b9 #11 (C E G Bb Db F#)
    C #9 #11 (C E G Bb D# F#)
    C Maj 11 (C E G B D F)
    C Maj b9 11 (C E G B Db F)
    C Maj #9 11 (C E G B D# F)
    C Maj #11 (C E G B D F#)
    C Maj b9 #11 (C E G B Db F#)
    C Maj #9 #11 (C E G B D# F#)
    C Min 11 (C Eb G Bb D F)
    C Min b9 11 (C Eb G Bb Db F)
    C Min #9 11 (C Eb G Bb D# F)
    C Min #11 (C Eb G Bb D F#)
    C Min b9 #11 (C Eb G Bb Db F#)
    C Min #9 #11 (C Eb G Bb D# F#)
    C Min Maj 11 (C Eb G B D F)
    C Min Maj b9 11 (C Eb G B Db F)
    C Min Maj #9 11 (C Eb G B D# F)
    C Min Maj #11 (C Eb G B D F#)
    C Min Maj b9 #11 (C Eb G B Db F#)
    C Min Maj #9 #11 (C Eb G B D# F#)
    C Aug 11 (C E G# Bb D F)
    C Aug b9 11 (C E G# Bb Db F)
    C Aug #9 11 (C E G# Bb D# F)
    C Aug #11 (C E G# Bb D F#)
    C Aug b9 #11 (C E G# Bb Db F#)
    C Aug #9 #11 (C E G# Bb D# F#)
    C Aug Maj 11 (C E G# B D F)
    C Aug Maj b9 11 (C E G# B Db F)
    C Aug Maj #9 11 (C E G# B D# F)
    C Aug Maj #11 (C E G# B D F#)
    C Aug Maj b9 #11 (C E G# B Db F#)
    C Aug Maj #9 #11 (C E G# B D# F#)
    C Half Dim 11 (C Eb Gb Bb D F)
    C Half Dim b9 11 (C Eb Gb Bb Db F)
    C Dim 11 (C Eb Gb Bbb D F)
    C Dim b9 11 (C Eb Gb Bbb Db F)
    C Dim Maj 11 (C Eb Gb B D F)
    C Dim Maj b9 11 (C Eb Gb B D F#)
    C 13 (C E G Bb D F A)
    C b9 11 13 (C E G Bb Db F A)
    C #9 11 13 (C E G Bb D# F A)
    C #11 13 (C E G Bb D F# A)
    C b9 #11 13 (C E G Bb Db F# A)
    C #9 #11 13 (C E G Bb D# F# A)
    C Maj13 (C E G B D F A)
    C Maj b9 11 13 (C E G B Db F A)
    C Maj #9 11 13 (C E G B D# F A)
    C Maj #11 13 (C E G B D F# A)
    C Maj b9 #11 13 (C E G B Db F# A)
    C Maj #9 #11 13 (C E G B D# F# A)
    C Min11 13 (C Eb G Bb D F A)
    C Min b9 11 13 (C Eb G Bb Db F A)
    C Min #9 11 13 (C Eb G Bb D# F A)
    C Min #11 13 (C Eb G Bb D F# A)
    C Min b9 #11 13 (C Eb G Bb Db F# A)
    C Min #9 #11 13 (C Eb G Bb D# F# A)
    C Min Maj 13 (C Eb G B D F A)
    C Min Maj b9 11 (C Eb G B Db F A)
    C Min Maj #9 11 13 (C Eb G B D# F A)
    C Min Maj #11 13 (C Eb G B D F# A)
    C Min Maj b9 #11 13 (C Eb G B Db F# A)
    C Min Maj #9 #11 13 (C Eb G B D# F# A)


    Sometimes complex chords may be simplified as stacks of simpler things (polychords)


    Triads over two note chords:
    Db minor over C Bb results in C7 #5 b9
    D major over E Bb results in C7 #11
    Eb major over C E results in C7 #9
    F# major over C E results in C7 b5 b9
    F# minor over E Bb results in C7 b5 b9
    A major over C Bb results in C7 b9


    Chords over chords:
    Ab major over C major results in C7 #11 b9D major over C7 results in C9 13 #11
    A major over C7 resulting in C13 b9
    Ab major over C7 resulting in C7 #5 #9
    Eb minor over C7 resulting in C7 #9 #11D major over Cmaj7 results in Cmaj13 #11
    D minor seventh over C minor seventh results in Cm13
    Abmaj7 over C7 results in C7 #9 b13
    A6 over C7 results in C13 b9 #11


    Progressions may be described by the Roman numeral system, which identifies the root of a chord by substituting the Roman numeral corresponding to that root's scale degree (including relative accidentals as needed) of the key of the progression. Major chords use upper case, minor chords use lower case. Here is an example of how common chord progression changes are shown schematically; ...follow the arrows, branching points, cycles, etc.