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Hey Guys and Gals
So I've been playing guitar a little bit but lacked the direction. I recently started exploring jazz and been trying to learn but a lot of stuff out there has no structure and I don't know where to go next. I did my due diligence and narrowed a lot of the stuff online to just a few. I need recommendations if anyone has tried these and where I should start. I don't mind going through them all in a logical sequence. I don't mind starting simple to build a solid foundation. Ultimately I want to comp and play over changes. The cost is not really an issue once its worth it. The goal is to transition from self taught to getting a teacher when I have a little more under my belt.
Here are my options and any other suggestions are more than welcome.
Jazz Guitar Roadmap - Jens Larson
The Jazz Guitar Roadmap
Bebop Guitar - Richie Zellon
Home | Bebop Guitar Improv Series
Jimmy Bruno Guitar Workshop
Learn Jazz Guitar | Jimmy Bruno Guitar Workshop
Looking forward to every response!
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02-26-2021 04:45 PM
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Hey Cris -- welcome!
Some good programs ... Why "wait," though, to get a teacher?? Find a good one in your area; if none, I recommend Pete Sklaroff (a member here) -- he teaches online, and he's excellent for students of any level!
And have fun!
Marc
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If you can't or don't want to get a teacher yet then apart from the (free) material on this site I'd recommend a subscription of Frank Vignola's Jazz Studio on Truefire. It's currently $ 10.00 / month I think and there's new material added constantly. Material covers basics and up to more advanced stuff and Frank is always available for questions and requests. Good luck!
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Thanks Marc. I feel I can get more from a teacher when I actually have a little more mastery of certain things. Still trying to get my arpeggios down for example and some things I think I should know so I can follow along with a teacher and make the most of that experience. But hey maybe I'll give it a go sooner than planned. I'll also check out Pete's website and definitely consider him thanks for the suggestion
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Just checked it out. It's 19.95 and you get 2 weekly zoom classes and close to 1500 videos? That sounds good definitely worth checking out.
Correction: The first tier is 10.00 with no private or zoom classes but still looks worth it
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ArtistWorks. Dave Stryker. You may want to use different fingerings than Dave, but otherwise a solid course. You can get frequent feedback, infreqent feedback, or none at all.
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Thanks Don. I've seen the Artistworks with Dave, Chuck or Martin but didn't consider it for long-term. I can take a second look. What do you like about it if you don't mind me asking? I'm also curious about using different fingerings than he uses. Tell me about that if you don't mind.
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I'm new to jazz but have some experience with classical style. I've been on Richie Zellon's course for about 4 months now. I like the course because it is very well organized, clearly explained, and quite thorough. The material introduced builds on what came before and the difficulty is gradual. One aspect that I like about the course is that he gets you to write etudes. As you progress through the modules/chapters and new devices (embellishments and approaches) are introduced you are encouraged to write out etudes to include the new concepts along with the old. Templates are provided with varying degree of constrains which helps me because when the possibilities are endless, I get paralyzed.
The first volume mostly only focuses on single line playing - no comping. Throughout the first volume, Richie stays within the blues progression adding more chords that are found in jazz blues as the course progresses. Volume 1 culminates with Bird's blue.
I learned about Richie's course from this forum. Other members here that have more experience may give a more detailed perspective.
EDIT: here's the link to Richie's course discussion thread
Found the best bebop online jazz improv course to date
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Thanks Optimist that helps a lot. I like Richie Zellon's playing and I can tell the site is well laid out. From looking at the site I just don't see a lot of comping. I definitely need to work on that but the single note stuff look awesome so I am having a hard time deciding but I'm getting some good direction here so I appreciate it
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It's balanced (solo, comping, chord melody) and gradual (i.e. leveled) as well.
Originally Posted by cris1xy
He's a bona fide recording artist and college instructor who has been there, done that. Most of the Artistworks teachers are heavy hitters.
Fingerings are personal choices. Pesrsonally I prefer CAGED with a few stretches here and there. For shifting approaches I prefer the techniques described by Aaron Shearer and William Leavitt. So I might play the same notes that Stryker plays but not necessarily with the same fingers. I think that's pretty typical though - because fingerings are personal choices.
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That makes sense and it cost less than half a year with Artistworks. Plus skype lessons. I only knew of Martin Taylor before going to Artist Works. Haven't heard of the others before them. I do have a book from Richie Zellon. I notice there's a jazz and bebop site. You have any experience with the jazz.richiezellon.com? Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
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UPDATE. I got the TrueFire 2 week trial and subscribed to Frank Vignola's Channel. Starting from the beginning. Still looking at the other options for a course for more long term. I'm gravitating toward the Richie Zellon Bepop series atm
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No I don't, but it looks pretty good. Originally Posted by cris1xy
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I got confused, actually thought you were referring to the richiezellon improv course. So Dave Stryker course worked for you? I see there's some standards in there I need to learn Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
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I guess I would go with the one whose playing you like best, because you'll be learning their examples.
Those are 3 VERY different players.
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True but they all play great to me based on my exposure. Believe me I narrowed the list down from a lot more than that. But usually playing ability does not equal teaching ability Originally Posted by jobabrinks
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To clarify, I am more familar with the Stryker course than the Zellon course, but the Zellon course looks good. Originally Posted by cris1xy
If, like someone said above, he counsels you to compose your own etudes then that is very good. It's a pretty standard technique actually:
- Learn some jazz language,
- Practice jazz language patterns in all keys and at least two fingerings when possible/advisable (sometimes it's just not),
- Write and master a 1-3 chorus etude/solo over the blues, rhythm changes, standard tune(s),
- Finally, approach free playing (improvisation) either gradually in small steps, or in leaps.
Rinse and repeat until you don't need step 3 anymore. That may take a few years, longer if you have limited practice time.
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Excellent thread.
Can someone suggest an online teacher in the USA ?
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Learning styles and teaching styles differ so it sounds like a good approach to audition different teachers. It's remarkably inexpensive to do so.
The best jump start into jazz style for me was a few months with Jimmy Bruno. He used to call it "no nonsense jazz guitar" and I think his approach is quite practical.
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I joined JB's workshop last week and am working on the positions. I like the way he is tying in the arpeggios into the scales. So far he is presenting things in an easy to grasp method. I used to absorb things easier a long time ago, now not so much, lol. But i am finding the website helpful so far.
Maybe its too early for a teacher?
I know basic theory but never was able to apply theory to any depth in my years of playing bass in a progressive rock band. I basically played what sounded good to me.
Im finding the guitar quite different from bass as far as the possibilities and need to be able to make the connection between theory and application.
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Position playing helps tremendously on the guitar, as it does on orchestral stringed instruments, where a given note appears in more than one place. Unlike the piano, for example.
Once you internalize the positions, or patterns as I see them, you have the muscle memory to play a scale anywhere on the fretboard. Likely you can quickly play a major 2nd up or down from anywhere on the fretboard now. As you develop your ear and rely on muscle memory from those patterns, you can reflexively play other intervals you hear in your head.
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I've worked my way through roughly half of the Dave Stryker program, but I have a few gripes with it. First, Dave seems to repeat a few licks over and over again. Also, once I got used to the Truefire layout with notation that runs along with the music, the videos at Artistwork just seem so outdated. Plus, for the same amount of money you can choose between tens of different teachers at Truefire. I much, much prefer TF to AW now.
I'm also halfway the Jens Larsen program and I must say that I really like it. It is focused on improv and arpeggios. The approach Jens uses is very natural and I made really a lot of progress. With the course comes a very friendly community where you can learn from each other. Also, Jens provides feedback on every video. Not in a video, like at TF, but in words. Even in a few words he makes a lot more sense than what I got out of the feedback videos at AW.
Although it might sound a bit weird, but Jens' 'European approach' does appeal more to me than some American teachers do at TF.
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I have studied with Jimmy Bruno, Robert Conti, and Richie Zellon. I also subscribed to Artist works for a year.
I didn't like the Artist Works course. I'll just leave it at that.
Robert Conti is very licks based. After you memorize a bunch of very long licks, they eventually start overlapping. It is a very quick way to get up and running with improvisation. It was a good starting point for me; I spent a lot of time with Conti's material about twenty years ago.
I never had much success with Jimmy Bruno's course. He would ask you to film yourself then he would critique it. It's a great method for people who aren't shy about making video's of themselves, but for me it was a PITA and a deal killer. I didn't get far at all. Jimmy is a great guy, so I'm not knocking him at all. I love the guy. It just wasn't for me.
Richie Zellon offers a college level course. It is completely organized and I have been just very impressed. Richie gets my highest recommendation. If you want to learn jazz from the ground up, Richie Zellon is your guy. He's also very accessible.
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Interesting. Could you elaborate on what you see as the distinction in approach between the two? Originally Posted by Joeontheguitar
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Thanks. Solid advice for a long-term outlook. I already made some fine tuning to my routine. Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
To clarify, I am more familar with the Stryker course than the Zellon course, but the Zellon course looks good.
If, like someone said above, he counsels you to compose your own etudes then that is very good. It's a pretty standard technique actually:
- Learn some jazz language,
- Practice jazz language patterns in all keys and at least two fingerings when possible/advisable (sometimes it's just not),
- Write and master a 1-3 chorus etude/solo over the blues, rhythm changes, standard tune(s),
- Finally, approach free playing (improvisation) either gradually in small steps, or in leaps.
Rinse and repeat until you don't need step 3 anymore. That may take a few years, longer if you have limited practice time.
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I used to have his dvd called no nonesense jazz guitar but never made it through. But he does seem like a practical teacher which is why I was having a hard time choosing where to focus for a couple months to a year at least. Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
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Nice that you're making progress. You mind giving me an idea how his "syllabus" is structured? He doesn't show much as to what you'll get in there. I'm actually checking out Barry Greene's stuff and it looks solid. A bit fast but solid. Originally Posted by d115
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That's actually very helpful to know about the AW program with Stryker and the program from Jens. I follow his Youtube Channel and his Patreon stuff. I like his stuff. Jens I mean. Originally Posted by Joeontheguitar
I tried TrueFire before and it wasn't working for me for the exact reason you might like it. Too many options. I'm not that disciplined and found myself all over the place and was in a new thing almost everyday. I was there for acoustic fingerstyle so just imagine the options.
I went back to TrueFire yesterday but only for Frank Vignola's Jazz Studio as someone here recommended I check out. It's focused and that's what I need. So that and I'm thinking Barry Greene's stuff and I won't be spread too thin.
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It's the little things. A little less 'drama'. Not everything that is OK is 'great'. The fact that Jens is not a native English makes it easier to understand. He won't use any hard to understand words. His English is effective. Originally Posted by Endaro
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I follow a number of courses simultaneously and that works for me. I also use TF if I need some ideas to comp or solo on a specific song. I have to admit it's sometimes hard to stick to a course, but if it really doesn't work out, there's a (maybe) better one around the corner. Originally Posted by cris1xy
There's a huge difference between the teachers. For example, Frank Vignola usually goes slow and explain everything you need to know. Fareed Hacque is a great teacher and I love his comping course, but sometimes I have to rewind and play what he says at least a couple of times to get what he means.
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If I may jump in again regarding Bruno's "syllabus". I'd break it down like this: Originally Posted by cris1xy
- Woodshed the five fingerings (down from the 6 or 7 in the old DVD series). This, in my view, unlocks the fretboard.
- Jimmy assigns you a tune: Satin Doll, Blue Bossa are among his favorite first tunes. Lean the head, the chords and
play a 100% diatonic solo based on a position. His thinking is, in my mind, you can make music with do-re-mi and you
need to know how to work with this set of tools before venturing into "outside notes". - Improvisation in different positions and connecting the positions. He has thoughts on how to do this.
- Guided ways to adding "outside notes", in Jimmy's language.
What I find particularly useful is the non-verbal communication. Jimmy can make a jazz line with a diatonic scale which,
to my ear, he makes sound more musical and relevant... and swing, than someone who might start hopping around an
altered dominant scale. Not that he can't and doesn't do that! It's just not necessary to make a good sounding line in his
pedagogy.
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Jimmy Bruno also breaks down his "major scale as a starting point methodology" in his two Hot Licks DVDs. Great stuff.
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I'll put Robert Conti on my list to check out. Thanks for that recommendation. I actually started with Barry Greene's site and its impressive how its structured. Richie Zellon bebop lessons though looks good and solid. I will give it another look since that's the structure I need Originally Posted by JoeW
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Originally Posted by cris1xy
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Originally Posted by JoeW
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Originally Posted by Endaro
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Although I haven't started as of yet, I just joined Jens Larsen's "The Jazz Guitar Roadmap" course. I've followed him for quite a while now on YT and I like his teaching style and the content quality of his videos.
If you join and find it's not for you, he offers a 30-Day money back guarantee.
Jens is also a member here.
Good luck and
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Thanks Marc! :-) Originally Posted by marcwhy
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After many half-finished TF courses, a couple of improvisation workshops, YT videos, books etc - I also decided to sign up for Jens Larsen's "The Jazz Guitar Roadmap" course earlier this week. I've only looked at the 2 first 2 chapters and find them instructive, well organised and useful. Being able to play a beginner level improvised solo with only a few notes after a few weeks will be great achievement, and I am planning to apply the same song/melody/soloing principles to other standards as well.
It was either Jens Larsen or Richie Zellon, and I also felt that after having looked at Jens's YT channel and videos for a long time now, it was time to give something back to him for all his efforts.
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+1 for Richie Zellon. If I may add, Dana Rasch has several comprehensive courses to chose from at visualguidetones
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I've been on the "The Jazz Guitar Roadmap" program for 2 weeks now and it's been great. I probably played more guitar in the last 2 weeks than ever before, and it motivated me to pick up other courses as well. What I like about the course (and I assume that would be the same for other courses as well) is the small steps to 'learn' soloing and improvising. It starts with 2 notes, then the arpeggio followed by the scale, and later on color notes etc. I've spent a lot of time soloing with just 2 notes and/or arpeggio on a ii-V, and I'll probably spend another 2 weeks just doing that before moving on.
The main frustration - if may call it that - is that I seem to spend a whole week just playing 4 notes and still not being happy with the results. There's no rush though, and I am more than happy to use the next couple of weeks if not months to internalise these exercises and them apply them to many other jazz standards.
This discussion topic finally motivated me to start a course, and I am extremely happy I did that. Thanks to everybody who contributed. 2 other benefits so far - I am getting better at identifying chords changes in the backing track and find my way back into the track when I get lost, and learning from recording myself and listening back. Plus I play much more guitar, even getting up at 6am to spend 1hr praticising before work.
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One thing that you can do while going through a step-by-step improv course is to run a parallel course of study where you learn jazz solo etudes or even better - transcribed solos. Originally Posted by bloos66
In that way you are doing "Imitate" (etudes/transcribed solos) and "Assimilate" (step-by-step improv course) at the same time.
After all, it's going to take some time before your improvisation capability reaches a high level (years) but you can/should be playing pro-level solos much sooner, as long as you're patient and steady with that study as well. Just make sure that the etudes/solos that you select are prioritized in a level-appropriate manner as well.
The goal is for the two paths to cross and become like one, someday.
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Thanks for your feedback and suggestion, and that's what I already do. Frank Vignola has some great jazz standard soloing courses on Truefire, and I also purchased a number of Matt's MWG courses with lots of solos in them. Lars's course also has a solo for each exercise to play along with. Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
For a jazz beginner like me, learning to play a 'good sounding' and swinging solo with just 2 notes, the arpeggio and/or scale will take quite a bit of time, but this time around I determined to go all the way :-)
I am also using a book series called 'Essential Elements Jazz-Play Along' by Michael Sweeney. The first book is an introduction to basic jazz blues soloing, the other books have jazz standards in them with suggested solos. They are mainly for jazz ensembles, and I used the way back when I played tenor sax and bass in a jazz big band. One day, I'll take over the guitar chair <g>
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I’m impressed with Barry Greene’s site but I wonder if the learning curve might be a bit steep for someone starting out.
I certainly appreciate being able to go back over a lesson, several times if necessary.
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I started rotating a few of them so yeah the curve is a quite steep for someone just starting out. He has a new stepping stones series which is for just that though. He also teaches well so for me I get what he was saying in his lessons. I'm not a total beginner but kind of new to jazz so I'm doing the 5 position study which is quite an eye opener and a workout. Originally Posted by Bach5G
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I have a few Barry lessons and they are great. Though they are densely packed with info and require repeated viewings. I like his tuned based videos as they are generally a deep dive. Each time you watch new stuff will be revealed. Barry is always careful to tell why he is doing certain things so you can apply to elsewhere. Also his Vimeo platform make sit very easy to watch your purchases. Originally Posted by cris1xy
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My thoughts exactly. The more I re watch a video the more I get something else out of it. Originally Posted by alltunes
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