The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I've been studying jazz guitar for the last year or so and recently discovered "George Van Eps Method for Guitar". He begins with 6 forms of a harmonized major scale in C. When he gets to the 6th step in the scale I was expecting an A minor triad, but instead he wants us to play an F major triad in 2nd inversion (see circled triad in attached screenshot).

    That doesn't seem right to me. Why wouldn't we play an A minor here instead?

    Thanks!

    Question Regarding Van Eps 6 Forms-eps-method-minor-jpg

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  3. #2

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    There's a thread on this somewhere. Somebody explained it well but I can't remember what they said. Anyway, it sounds good. Maybe it would be called an augmented minor? F being the raised 5th.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E Blue
    There's a thread on this somewhere. Somebody explained it well but I can't remember what they said. Anyway, it sounds good. Maybe it would be called an augmented minor? F being the raised 5th.
    Thank you! I found it here:
    George Van Eps Guitar Method

    I thought I'd searched all "eps" posts but apparently not.

  5. #4

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    to me I think its a print error..note in form 2..the fingering is a bar with just the first finger..that would imply the notes on the fifth fret C E A BUT the notation is using the F note..
    which is wrong


    also just follow the scale steps each chord is harmonized from the C major scale in all three forms the notes progress scale step wise except for the sixth chord in the scale which which is written C F A but should be voiced C E A

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maroonblazer
    I've been studying jazz guitar for the last year or so and recently discovered "George Van Eps Method for Guitar". He begins with 6 forms of a harmonized major scale in C. When he gets to the 6th step in the scale I was expecting an A minor triad, but instead he wants us to play an F major triad in 2nd inversion (see circled triad in attached screenshot).

    That doesn't seem right to me. Why wouldn't we play an A minor here instead?

    Thanks!

    Question Regarding Van Eps 6 Forms-eps-method-minor-jpg
    Because it's too neutral, in harmony the VI is never inverted except if it has a dominant form.
    He wants to underline the major key.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    to me I think its a print error..note in form 2..the fingering is a bar with just the first finger..that would imply the notes on the fifth fret C E A BUT the notation is using the F note..
    which is wrong


    also just follow the scale steps each chord is harmonized from the C major scale in all three forms the notes progress scale step wise except for the sixth chord in the scale which which is written C F A but should be voiced C E A
    I write it in tabs in order to help you.

    x
    10
    10
    10
    x
    x

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax
    Because it's too neutral, in harmony the VI is never inverted except if it has a dominant form.
    He wants to underline the major key.



    I write it in tabs in order to help you.

    x
    10
    10
    10
    x
    x


    thank you for the imput...and in reviewing the preface to the notation..indeed the string sets do match the notation..so this harmonization is not strictly diatonic..and there are two F chords in this arrangement,..As for the vi chord (Aminor) never being inverted..we may disagree on this point.

    I interpret this harmonization as I ii iii IV (first inversion) V IV (second inversion) V I the diminished chord functions as a V (7b9) dominant
    Last edited by wolflen; 12-21-2020 at 03:15 AM.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    thank you for the imput...and in reviewing the preface to the notation..indeed the string sets do match the notation..so this harmonization is not strictly diatonic..and there are two F chords in this arrangement,..As for the vi chord (Aminor) never being inverted..we may disagree on this point.
    The first inversion sounds like the the relative major (C major) but a bit odd, the second inversion announces a dominant.

    A-/E E A-

    but we are in A minor not in C Major

    For minor keys, it's the same.

    F is the VI

    The first inversion in this context sounds like an odd relative major (C Major)

    With the second inversion

    F/C C F

    Everybody has the right to believe in whatever he or she wants.

  9. #8

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    It's not a printing error, and GVE discusses it in a recorded interview with Ted Greene, where he gives a really unsatisfactory explanation that players at the time didn't know fancy chords - or something along those line. I never thought of Am as fancy...

    However, it seems to me he was creating a 251 sequence, Dm7 (rootless) / G7 / C with those highest three chords, a sequence which is far more useful and practical. Looked at that way, the book becomes more interesting. BTW, here's my GVE page with many videos from this book: GVEps – ArchtopGuitar.net

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    However, it seems to me he was creating a 251 sequence, Dm7 (rootless) / G7 / C with those highest three chords, a sequence which is far more useful and practical.
    I just skimmed through all these van eps threads which are linked within this one and I think you must have said this about 20 times Rob!

    I got the PDF of this book some time back from djangobooks, but must admit I haven’t done much with it, probably should have a go.

  11. #10

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    Haha. Sorry.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Haha. Sorry.
    no worries, I just meant you must have got tired of answering the same question over and over. Dear old George has a lot to answer for!

  13. #12

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    I'm still curious as to whether that chord could be called an augmented minor. What say you theory mavens. Is there such a thing?

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    ...BTW, here's my GVE page with many videos from this book: GVEps – ArchtopGuitar.net
    I discovered your site a few months ago when I discovered GVE. Huge thanks to you for that work, it's super-helpful.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E Blue
    I'm still curious as to whether that chord could be called an augmented minor. What say you theory mavens. Is there such a thing?
    Theoretically, an aug 5th should show an e#, not an f. Ergo, it is not an augmented minor. So you can climb down from that tree

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    no worries, I just meant you must have got tired of answering the same question over and over. Dear old George has a lot to answer for!
    And I might be wrong, but I am practical... ii7 / V / I works for me.

  17. #16

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    damn...you said it again.

  18. #17

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    Been a while since I looked at these but I remember thinking they were the way they were to ensure strong traditional chord progressions. (Rather like the old rules of the octave for continuo playing.)

  19. #18

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    I can't think of any reason that those working on this harmonized scale couldn't change that to Am if they wanted to. That's what I do.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Been a while since I looked at these but I remember thinking they were the way they were to ensure strong traditional chord progressions. (Rather like the old rules of the octave for continuo playing.)
    Hey ! I learnt the piano with that thing, it comes from Jean-Philippe Rameau.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Theoretically, an aug 5th should show an e#, not an f. Ergo, it is not an augmented minor. So you can climb down from that tree
    Thank you. I got down safely.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen
    ...I think its a print error..
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E Blue
    ...I'm still curious as to whether that chord could be called an augmented minor. What say you theory mavens. Is there such a thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Maroonblazer
    "George Van Eps Method for Guitar".
    He begins with 6 forms of a harmonized major scale in C.
    When he gets to the 6th step in the scale I was expecting an A minor triad, but instead he wants us to play an F major triad in 2nd inversion (see circled triad in attached screenshot).
    That doesn't seem right to me. Why wouldn't we play an A minor here instead?
    Thesis
    It's certainly an eye-catcher at first sight, but my first inclination is that GVE is absolutely correct. Indubitably! And I'll maintain that path while trying to discover his intentions.

    GVE Exercise 1
    The main objective of GVE's Exercise 1 is to provide his student with an optimum and practical fingering when executing first inversion triads in the key while keeping the root note on top as melody note. As GVE says, "root to root" movement.

    Exercise 1 Description
    GVE Ex.1: Harmonise the C Major Scale with Triads in First Inversion, Keeping the Root on top (Drop 1/2). GVE provides 6 Forms of the same Exercise 1. Each Form provides a different path for playing the same harmonised triads along the strings. GVE's Form 1 uses strings 234 and 123, crossing over between scale degrees iii and IV.

    Chord Stacks
    Form 1: CDE 2/3, FGABC 1/3
    I ii iii IV V vi vii:
    C D E F G A B C
    G A B C D (F) F G
    E F G A B C D E

    Observations
    The Roots and Thirds are regular.
    The Fifths are regular, except Degree vi, where an F is used instead of the expected E.
    The triad CFA implies an FM triad in 2nd inversion substituted for the expected Am triad in 1st inversion.
    So, GVE suggests using IV'' in place of vi'.

    Voice Leading
    The vi' F note anticipates the vii F note, like a "borrowed" tone. The voice leading of vi into vii by a common tone and two whole steps is smooth. Guitarists don't play chords as much as resolve them, one by one, on a journey through the key to the tonic. (or as GVE says, "reduction")

    Consult the Cycle of Thirds for Chord Synonyms
    In the Cycle of Thirds, (...FACEGBD...), Am and FM7 are synonyms. In fact, FM and Am have two common tones, so their key function is nearly the same or preserved. In conclusion, see this as a simple common tone chord substitution from the Cycle of Thirds. A typical substitution in jazz harmony.

    WHY
    So, we know the Who, What, Where, When and How. But Why did GVE make this deviation?

    It's All About The Fingering
    We must keep in mind that this exercise was meant to be repeated in the keys of C C# D D# E F, ascending/descending. Ultimately, GVE's elegant fingering was designed for the "actual and realistic" changes a guitarist would encounter when accompanying a "real" melody in a "real" song.

    Open String Grips vs. Movable Grips
    The 201 fingering of CM' is unique to open position. This may have been the distraction here for some of us. In the key of D, the fingering would be 312 and not 201. (An assumption on my part, but a strong one.)

    GVE Fingering

    D 312 (assumed...)
    E 324
    F# 324
    (Stringset Crossover)
    G 211
    A 211
    B 243
    C# 213
    D 211

    Notice the slight "rocking" sensation in your stopping hand as you switch from fingering 312 to 324. The ring finger is an anchor on the string, while "team 1,2" switches to "team 2,4", as GVE could have said.

    The hand gently toggles as the centre of pressure changes within it. The same feeling is mirrored on the next stringset with fingering 211 to 243. Then from 243 to 213 to 211, we feel the pressure slide from the weaker fingers to the stronger, sensing the tension increase and decrease in the ulnar nerve as fingers 4, then 3 are replace by the index finger. As Fernando Sor said, "never give work to the weakest fingers, while the strongest are doing nothing."

    The magic is in the fine details. GVE reveals the genius within the guitar's tuning when approached intelligently. We can't buy experience. Especially applied experience.

    Real World
    See how they should sound by actual tunes. Try:
    "Lean On Me" C, C Dm Em F
    "Peace Train" C Dm Em Em Dm C, F G (FM 2nd inv sub for Am)
    I like throwing GVE's fingering of CM Dm Em from Form 1 against any tonic major that's lazy...

    F Major Second Inversion For Finger Navigation
    Obviously, GVE's fingering flows with only minimal positional shifting and is perfect for switching between scale degree chords. His consideration for excellence is revealed as he explains the advantage of forming the hand in mid-air before landing on the next chord. Not only did GVE select an FM to replace an Am, but he selected the second inversion of FM. So FM alone was not his ultimate goal. He selected FM, 2nd inversion to exploit its shape and fingering utility within the Six Forms.

    GVE's original intent of providing a proper fingering was met.

    Harmonic "Mechanisms"
    He respected Scales, Harmonised Scals, TRIADS, Stringsets, and Fingering. He even tells us by his title "Harmonic Mechanisms" that the aim of his book is to actualise musical harmony onto the fingerboard. His explanations on the "walking teamwork" of the stopping hand reveal his zeal for optimum mechanisms using The Triad as the key to unlocking the mystery.

    BTW
    (Perhaps the CFA substitution for CEA also eliminates the E in CEA which may clash a bit under the Melodic or Harmonic Minor Scales. Softening the minor sound so that either scale can be expected.)

    Last edited by StringNavigator; 06-08-2021 at 12:56 PM.