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  1. #1

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    Hey everyone it's my 1st post don't hurt me. I've been playing rock and blues for a long while and decided to try some Jazz during the quarantine. Anyway I signed up to TrueFire and I'm loving it but a bit stuck trying to wrap my head around lesson progression/solo. I'm learning alone and it would be huge if someone could look at my chord analysis attempt to make sure I'm 'thinking about the chords' in a good way. Thanks! Have a great one.

    Bbmaj7 Am7(b5) D7(b9)
    I ii of vi V of vi
    Gm7 C7(b9) Fm7 Bb7
    vi or ii of V V of V ii of IV V of IV
    Ebmaj7 Ebm7 Ab7
    IV parallel minor > ii of bIII V of bIII
    Dbmaj7 C#m7 F#7
    bIII ii of bII V of bII
    Bmaj7 Cm7 F7
    bII ii of I V of I
    Dm7 G7 Cm7 F7
    ii of II V of II ii of I V of I

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by xgypsy
    Hey everyone it's my 1st post don't hurt me.I'm learning alone and it would be huge if someone could look at my chord analysis attempt to make sure I'm 'thinking about the chords' in a good way. Thanks! Have a great one.
    Hey that looks pretty good. I take it you're given the changes and you supply the analysis? Cool. Nice progression. That BMaj7 is an enharmonic Cb, wisely written as a B. Yeah the analysis is good. Personally I see the B section as a sequence with accompanying secondary dominants. And while they can be analyized relative to the parent Bb key, when I play them, I think of them as individual temporary key centres descending by whole step. That's the way my ear analyzes it. And we get into the issue of when an analysis reflects a theoretical vision or how we individually look at something like a sequence.
    I have a whole bunch of sequence patterns that I practiced until they were internalized, until they were in my ear. (WT descending like this, or II V descending like the Miss Jones B section, Or tritone subs, etc.) So when I see a line like the B section here going from the IV, descending down whole steps, I don't think of the individual key areas relative to the larger key, but rather as one WT root movement descending line converging with the tritone sub bII.
    That's the way I hear, and I solo according to what I hear, guided by what I know.
    You're analysis is good. You'll develop in internal analysis that depends on how you, individually "see" the topography of the tune. It's a sonic landscape and in the end, you're a cartographer who maps the way you navigate based on what you practice.
    Have fun!
    Last edited by Jimmy blue note; 12-01-2020 at 05:10 PM.

  4. #3
    hey thanks good to know I'm not totally off the beaten track.
    yes, we're given the chords, solo and backing tracks.
    hopefully as you said I can develop my ear and internalize more of these patterns through exposure.
    I'll look for the WT sequence when I practice next thanks

  5. #4

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    Not sure what to say. I didn't learn how to play that kind of progression with that kind of analysis. I don't find it useful, but don't take that as advice. Your teacher may know more than me.

    To me, the important thing is that this is a 12 bar blues.

    There is something I learned as "back cycling".

    Bar 5 is Ebmaj7. The V7 of that is Bb7. Bb7 often resolves to Eb, so you can put in front of the Ebmaj7.

    Then, you could make it into a ii V (a very common sequence that's easy to hear). So, if the Bb7 is the V, you can put an Fm7 in front of it.

    Working backwards again, the next chord (really, the previous chord) is C7 or C7b9. C7 often resolves to Fm. The ii for C7 is Gm7.

    Or you could see the Gm7 C7 / Fm7 Bb7 as two ii V's, the first one a whole step higher than the second one.

    If you work backwards again, you can see the D7 as the V chord in Gm. And the Am7b5 as the ii chord in Gm.

    The rest of it is built similarly, more or less.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by xgypsy

    Bbmaj7 Am7(b5) D7(b9)
    I ii of vi V of vi
    Gm7 C7(b9) Fm7 Bb7
    vi or ii of V V of V ii of IV V of IV
    Ebmaj7 Ebm7 Ab7
    IV parallel minor > ii of bIII V of bIII
    Dbmaj7 C#m7 F#7
    bIII ii of bII V of bII
    Bmaj7 Cm7 F7
    bII ii of I V of I
    Dm7 G7 Cm7 F7
    ii of II V of II ii of I V of I
    Sorry, I have to say this picture is completely meaningless to me. Progressions are not laid out like this. If this is some sort of 'introduction to jazz' somebody is leading you astray.

    I also don't see the point in writing the numerals under the chord symbols. It's supposed to be music and music is supposed to be played. The numerals won't assist playing the chords one bit. That should be the point... but it probably isn't.

    What's this with the numerals in any case? If Bb is the I then Am7b5 is the vii and D7b9 is the III7. Except, presumably because the next chord is Gm7, they've become the ii and V of vi. Gm7 is indeed the vi but now it's the ii as well. Presumably because the next chord is a C7b9 which is the II7... blah, blah, blah.

    Don't bother. I don't see the point in this kind of thing at all. What's it for?

    I assume the progression is supposed to look like this and the numerals are supposed to tell you WHY it looks like this. They won't.

    | BbM7 | Am7b5 D7b9 | Gm7 C7b9 | Fm7 Bb7 |
    | EbM7 | Ebm7 Ab7 | DbM7 | C#m7 F#7 |
    | BM7 | Cm7 F7 | Dm7 G7 | Cm7 F7 |

    This is no 'introductory' jazz blues at all. It's not a usual jazz blues and it's not a Bird blues. I'm assuming it was cooked up as an exercise in working out chord relationships. But, like I say, to what point? There are far simpler, clearer, and easier ways to do it. If you have to do it at all.

    You say you're:

    a bit stuck trying to wrap my head around lesson progression/solo
    I dare say you are! Most players here would have a ton of trouble soloing over this. They probably wouldn't even bother.

    Have you got a link to the Truefire site where this is? Or can you paste in the lesson text from it?

    ----------------------------

    I'm not trying to 'hurt you', I just think it's nonsense. It also worries me that presumably you've paid money for it.

    Compare and contrast with this (free) - Isn't this complicated enough? Or have you mastered all this already?

    Jazz Blues Chord Progressions - Shapes & Comping Examples

    Jazz Blues Guitar Licks & Solos

  7. #6

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    I think it's a decent blues variation. The typical one has the Ebm7 start a chromatic descent. This one, instead, actually hits the Dbmaj after the Ab7. Then, it goes to the Dbm and plays another ii V I.

    The Bmajor is an interesting twist. It's a I chord, in effect, but it's right in the middle of what might be heard as a Cm7 to F7. Tritone? Lower neighbor? Upper? No idea. I hear a ii V I in B and then Bb tonal center.

    At the end, the chords are a iii VI ii V back to the tonic for the next chorus. That's significant because it can all be considered to be in Bb tonal center. Not C and then Bb. I mean, if you think that way.

    Knowing something is the V of biii doesn't help me a bit -- maybe it helps others. Knowing the tonal centers of the ii V and ii V I sequences is helpful to me.

    I don't see it as particularly challenging to solo over. Some ii V's in a blues progression.

  8. #7

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    I think it's good too but the OP's a beginner.

    It's also a bit sad that he pays some guy at Truefire for lessons and then has to come here to find out what's going on. Crazy.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I dare say you are! Most players here would have a ton of trouble soloing over this. They probably wouldn't even bother.
    Speak for yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I think it's good too but the OP's a beginner.
    At least he making an effort to understand the material, why do you want to dismiss that .. I get that it's beyond you, but why also kill OP's enthusiasm?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    It's also a bit sad that he pays some guy at Truefire for lessons and then has to come here to find out what's going on. Crazy.
    I'm guessing he didn't sing up for individual lessons with a teacher, but purchased one of their courses and is digging into the progression that is behind one of the solo's shown?


    Anyways to OP
    Jimmy blue note and rpjazzguitar pretty much nailed what I wanted to say

    Main point is that ii-Vs aren't usually related to the parent key, but are just seen as movement that can be chained and will eventually resolve

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I think it's good too but the OP's a beginner.

    It's also a bit sad that he pays some guy at Truefire for lessons and then has to come here to find out what's going on. Crazy.
    I don't think it's sad at all. Not trying to be confrontational nor contradictory, but learning to improvise in a real time situation given the many parameters of harmony, melody, hearing, kinesthetics, visualization, imagination and lexicon of the canon...that's a lot for a person to get from any single source.
    I've learned on my own. I've learned from listening to the radio around NY. I've learned from some great teachers. I've learned in and out of some of the most respected institutions of learning and I've learned from playing with players of all levels. Never have I considered any one source as giving any where near a complete picture. Community has been essential for my learning, and at least it used to be that this forum was a supportive community where members gave a rare and generous tap into their individual experiences.
    OP's got it right. He's trying, he's understanding and at least he came here with good knowledge that can be used to shape a musical sensibility.
    I, for one, don't see that as a bad thing.

  11. #10

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    xgypsy, pay attention to the reply by ragman1. The format you posted is confusing and "non-standard" with no visual relationship to how tunes are structured.

  12. #11
    Hey everyone, I appreciate all the responses the progressions seems less formidable already.
    I can't link it, it's behind a paywall. But he says it's based on Toots Thielemans classic tune in 3/4, "Bluesette" with multiple key centers.
    Here's the course:
    https://truefire.com/jazz-guitar-lessons/organic-improv/c1532
    it would be lessons 28-30.
    As you can see the focus is soloing and improvising so there's not much about the progression. I can get the solo under my fingers and see how it relates to the chords and passing tones but I'm going for a better understanding of the chord movement.
    Again thanks everyone I just get stuck in my own head, I can't wait to practice today with all the input.

  13. #12

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    OP you are going in the right direction with this kind of analysis, don’t let naysayers discourage you.
    By understanding harmony as scaler elements (III, IV, V, etc) and not locked key elements (E, F, G) you can more easily shift keys and substitutions.

    Jimmie and I come at this from pretty much the same place. Learning jazz should be aural first. Then there are any number of technical musical analysis tools to help understand what’s going on. But they are not what creates jazz. So practicing these types of progressions (over and over, different positions, keys) engraves in your hearing a set of patterns that will (hopefully) float up while improvising.

    As to the legitimacy of this approach, in college tonal harmony we would take complex classical pieces and measure by measure determine the scaler elements as you did above, ie, V of V, III of I. (And of course the most incredible VII of IX, right Trekkies?). They could get a bit hairy as they pile up (V of V of V of I) but that’s just going around the cycle of fifths, easy peasy. But at this level of analysis, note there’s really no difference between jazz and classical, or any form of western music.

    Learning it all this way is quite practical. The step beyond is to hear the connecting notes between the elements to make the movement between chords as close as possible. Howard Roberts was a master of this. The use in jazz is typically using that “leading tone” (the one close to the next chord) as a pivot in improvisation. In bebop, coming back to any root you would go for the flatted fifth note of V to drop back to the I root ( in C, it’s Db to C, Db being the flatted fifth note of the V chord G).

    I know, enough )

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter;[URL="tel:1079920"
    1079920[/URL]]OP you are going in the right direction with this kind of analysis, don’t let naysayers discourage you.
    )
    Yes !
    carry on OP
    it looks pretty right to me too
    i guess different people conceptualise
    things differently ....

    Ragman quote ?
    Most players here would have a ton of trouble soloing over this. They probably wouldn't even bother.
    why ? it’s Bluesette
    it’s not that crazy ....

  15. #14

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    It is fine to me... (first I wrote anothe post - but I immidiately got that I totally misunderstood your initial diaram)...

    Sure it is great way to do that.

    but my personal experience taught me that it is imortant to focus more on high-lights.. not to drown in details...

    for example

    bmaj7 Am7(b5) D7(b9)
    I ii of vi V of vi
    Gm7 C7(b9) Fm7 Bb7
    vi or ii of V V of V ii of IV V of IV
    Ebmaj7


    All this is just a road from I to IV... having this in mind you may develope absolutely different soloing pathways..

    But what you do is also great for studying possibilities of course! Just in real playing you will have to choose something.. not all at once..

  16. #15
    So xgypsy, let's take a moment to step back and let me offer some advice. See live music. Listen to a LOT of good jazz. It's easy, and fun, and as you start to assimilate some of your own rules of what it's about, you'll understand a lot more about what others are doing, why each person's approach IS different, and how much of a given it is that the masters had their own internal chart different from anything you've ever seen.
    You say, "Heh, see live music? In these times?" Yes. there are places you can go and see live streaming each and every week.
    Things like this:
    Log into Facebook | Facebook
    The great Jerry Bergonzi with Phil Grenadier doing a weekly FB live streaming every Thursday (postings on their FB pages give you links each week). Many contrafacts and a veritable gold mine master class in listening.
    Live music makes it real.

  17. #16

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    You would probably make life a little easier on yourself by simplifying the breakdown. The tune is essentially a series of major and minor II V I's and II V's. Because many jazz tunes modulate (change key centre) often, it's difficult to analyze them in terms of numerals as they relate to the original key centre. Although the bass (root) may make sense using numerals, the chord type may not. So, you need to look at the different keys and let that guide your ideas. The art to improvising, however, is to be able to play through the key changes as opposed to restricting your ideas to within each key. For example, you have a II V I in Eb, followed by a II V I in Db. So instead of playing a Eb idea, then a Db idea, you need to thread them together but exploring the relationship between them. The difference between the Ebmaj7 and Ebmin7 is in the 3rd and 7th notes. To thread those two chords together you need to outline the changing notes. Good improvisers will do this without making it obvious that's what they are doing. Other great improvisors love to make a point by emphasizing the change. Wes Montgomery liked to do this. But first things first.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by vsaumarez
    You would probably make life a little easier on yourself by simplifying the breakdown. ... Good improvisers will do this without making it obvious that's what they are doing. Other great improvisors love to make a point by emphasizing the change. Wes Montgomery liked to do this. But first things first.
    Great advice vsaumarez. When I was in Philly, they had a pretty active jazz jam scene. A lot of old school bop players. They were really supportive and I was learning. One time I was on the stand and someone called a tune I didn't know. I thanked them and went to go back to my seat, but they said "No. Stay up here, play the tune, you know it, you can hear it, play the parts you know and you'll get it." and sure enough, 'got the key, got the feel for the bridge by the second or third chorus of someone else's solo, made a note of some tricky spots I didn't know what was happening in and by the time it was time for me to solo, I had a pretty good feeling of what the piece looked like in my head.
    Of course there were always guys who'd come up there with their copies of the real book, but I did notice, they didn't get invited to stay up there, and they didn't get invited to come up nearly as much.
    Nothing like seeing a "black hole" in a piece where you say "What goes here?", going home, looking it up and having an AHA moment. You can be sure that device or approach will be familiar each and every time you encounter it in other tunes. It's making your own way through that makes you a stronger player. God Bless the Child