The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    This is a live clip of Grover and his top flight band doing "Mister Magic". Eric Gale takes a solo at 2:29 and I'm just not feeling it. For me (and I am no expert), it sounds disjointed and kinda start-stop-ish. Gale was clearly a top player and a studio pro that was on the original recording, so he knows the changes. The YouTube comments are glowing about his solo and even Grover looks pretty stoked by it when Gale winds down. Am I missing something? Is there some harmonic or rhythmic content that is going over my head? I'm just wondering what I am missing - if anything.



    Grover Washington Jr.
    Eric Gale
    Richard Tee
    Paul Griffin
    Anthony Jackson
    Steve Gadd
    Ralph MacDonald

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Nothing wrong for me. He insists on rhythm and repetitions, with a basic vocabulary that fits the genre of the song.

  4. #3

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    1) Music is a subjective thing. Mostly, Eric Gale's playing has just never really done it for me. I have occasionally heard some of his work that I liked, but ... mostly not. What does do it for me is what Drew Zingg might do :-)

    2) As for Grover looking stoked, what's he gonna do... give Eric the stink-eye? Some players might, but most would not, as a matter of showmanship as well as professional courtesy.

    3) Youtube comments? Really? Like youtube commenters know anything about music? See also point 1)

  5. #4

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    Sounds like a jazz guy suddenly asked to play a blues solo on a jazz box with flatwounds.

  6. #5
    We used to call this tune Mr. Tragic kind of like starting off with All Blues and telling the audience this is super advanced jazz improv! The non musician might buy it but more advanced ears would not. These players had a commercial formula from the seventies with often Atlantic records under the name Stuff was one group with Cornell Dupree on guitar as well. Eric Gales can play more advanced harmonies when he needed to but I would say HE WAS PLAYIN THE GIG!!!

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sounds like a jazz guy suddenly asked to play a blues solo on a jazz box with flatwounds.
    That's what it sounded like to me as well. He sounded like he was sitting in on the wrong gig.

  8. #7

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    There were no ‘changes’ to speak of during his solo, it was just a simple 2-chord vamp. So he played what was basically a blues solo, and he built it up quite nicely to a climax with repeated high-note figures. Seemed like a good solo for the context, to me.

    I once saw Eric Gales and as I recall a lot of his playing was like this. He certainly didn’t play any bebop type stuff.

  9. #8
    Maybe Eric is more of a feel, groove, and rhythm guy, because I am not feeling his playing on this solo. I figured he was trying to go for the blues with the bends and motifs, but his phrasing wasn't terribly smooth and there were a lot of clams when he tried to speed things up and it made the timing go wonky. Maybe the blues is not really his wheelhouse.

  10. #9

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    Nothing "wrong" with the solo, and I wished I were as "wonky" as he was. If you don't like it, find another video -- no biggie.

  11. #10

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    That live version is much faster than the version on the album. It's more hectic and I don't think the pocket is nearly as deep. It's the entire band, not just Eric Gale. But I like how is playing is hard and spikey, kinda over in the James Blood Ulmer realm.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by marcwhy
    Nothing "wrong" with the solo, and I wished I were as "wonky" as he was. If you don't like it, find another video -- no biggie.
    I get what you mean. I am still learning jazz and I'm still working out what I hear. Things like outside playing and sophisticated harmonies can confuse my ears. I love Grover, so I guess I expected to love Eric too and thought maybe I was missing out on something. No worries. I guess it just wasn't to my taste and that's alright.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by SandChannel
    I'm just wondering what I am missing - if anything.
    I guess you are not appreciating/enjoying all that "grease" he is laying down.

  14. #13

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    While it's not the greatest solo in the world, I think the solo is appropriate for the gig. This is no bebop gig and he plays no bebop solo.

    Anyway, when you say you don't "feel it" is that just slang to confuse a poor non-native speaker or does it mean that you have no emotional relationship to it? That's fine. Apart from the fact, of course, that you were annoyed enough to start a whole thread about one fairly standard guitar solo.

    BTW Grover plays the same kind of stuff but of course a tenor sounds more emotional than a 175.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by docsteve
    Anyway, when you say you don't "feel it" is that just slang to confuse a poor non-native speaker or does it mean that you have no emotional relationship to it? That's fine. Apart from the fact, of course, that you were annoyed enough to start a whole thread about one fairly standard guitar solo.
    First, when I say I'm not feeling it, it means that I am not connecting to it.

    Second, I was watching the Grover clip and looking forward to hearing the guitar solo and it fell flat for me. So when I started looking through the YouTube comments, people were praising the solo so I thought maybe I was missing something harmonically. I'm not annoyed. I'm trying to learn.

  16. #15

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    No offense intended. It's fine wishing to understand why you don't enjoy a particular way of playing, saves you a lot of detours.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by docsteve
    No offense intended. It's fine wishing to understand why you don't enjoy a particular way of playing, saves you a lot of detours.
    No worries. Music is art and although not all of it fits me like a glove, I want to be able to appreciate it and understand how others see/hear it. Color me curious.

  18. #17

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    I think one problem with these kind of things is coming to them with some kind of ‘advance expectation’ of what you like to hear. So a guitarist like Gale is always going to sound a little ‘rough’ compared to a slick sax player like Grover, it’s partly in the nature of the instruments for one thing. If you want to hear something fast and slick on the guitar, he probably won’t deliver it.

    I used to have similar problems when I first got into jazz. For example, I just could not stand bebop trumpet for some reason, it just sounded shrill and annoying to me at first. But when I heard some very laid back medium-register Lee Morgan solos (with Art Blakey) it opened my ears up a bit. Eventually I began to dig Dizzy as well as Miles, Lee, etc.

    So one way to widen your appreciation is to try and listen without your preconceptions getting in the way, try to enjoy whatever unique qualities that particular player and instrument have to offer, rather than what you ‘wanted’ them to offer (if you see what I mean).

    I actually enjoyed that Gale solo more than I thought I would. I just accepted he plays it like a blues with a few ‘rough edges’ (rather than some kind of slick bebop etc) and I liked that, for what it was, in that context.

  19. #18

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    @SandChannel, for fun, post a video of a solo that you enjoyed! [I probably have a couple hundred saved on my YouTube account!]

  20. #19

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    Yeah perhaps Grover picked him primarily as a rhythm cat and a good foil solo wise. Horn players don’t hear guitar players in the same way. I think a lot of things we obsess over as guitarists they don’t hear at all.

    Perhaps someone with Benson level chops might not have been right for the band (not that many had/have Benson level chops.)

  21. #20

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    Also that sound is really unforgiving; close mic dry amp. I think in the space it would have sounded different.

  22. #21

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    Plays the tune right, imho.

  23. #22

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    I never suffered from the fact, that I did not like something what I "should"...(by any mean, and for any reason) There are so many other things to love, so what? The impro sounds OK, no more, but there is no reason to neither explain what's wrong with it neither what the listener is missing if he do not get it.

  24. #23

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    I think it’s an interesting question actually. People hear differently and you can learn a lot from how other people hear.

    The way you hear music will be the most important influence on how you play it...

  25. #24

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    Sounds like a fine bluesy solo to me and which is appropriate for the tune. At times (3:45 to 4:00) it reminded me of Duane Allman (check his solo on "I'm Going Down Slow") - which is the best compliment I could ever give in this genre!

  26. #25

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    Eric Gale was a great player. I doubt that he'd call this one of his best solos.

    Early in this solo it sounds like he isn't warmed up. Or he isn't relaxed enough to execute his ideas. He flubs some notes with his left hand and he screws up some fast picking with his right hand. Even harder to relax after doing that with a big audience.

    Possibly, he couldn't hear himself well and ended up picking too hard, with the result that the notes sound choked off.

    The dry tone doesn't help this solo IMO, although I think that's the way he usually played. He's trying to play a wailing blues solo with long sustained notes on a guitar that isn't designed for that.

    I also hear parts of the solo as lagging the groove.