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  1. #1

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    Hi all, I hope you are doing OK.

    I have been practicing passing chords and love the sound of diminished secondary dominants. I have been going up the neck using them as linking chords. However I am not sure what chords are normally used when going a half step down to a chord? I have been trying some substitutions like a major 7 going down to a dominant 7 in a major key but is their a standard approach to descending passing chords I should be practicing?

    Thanks in advance!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma View Post
    Hi all, I hope you are doing OK.

    I have been practicing passing chords and love the sound of diminished secondary dominants. I have been going up the neck using them as linking chords. However I am not sure what chords are normally used when going a half step down to a chord? I have been trying some substitutions like a major 7 going down to a dominant 7 in a major key but is their a standard approach to descending passing chords I should be practicing?

    Thanks in advance!
    Try diminisheds going downward as well. Doesn’t always work (don’t like it going to major) but useful

  4. #3

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    For me:

    Dominants to major, dominant or minor.

    Any same voicing sliding down... i.e. Maj7 to Maj7, Dom7 to Dom7, mi7 to mi7 etc.

    I like to have a high note that is in both chords if I can. Kind of a Steely Dan device.
    Attached Images Attached Images Ideas for passing chords going down a half step?-half-step-png 

  5. #4

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    Experimentation is the key word in things like this...

    in doing so ANY two chords in ANY direction MAY sound good...now the key to this approach is voice leading..
    paying attention to the bass and top notes..are they going in the same direction or contrary motion..

    then the middle voices...move them around-ONE note at a time to hear how they sound in relation to each other..if you can record stuff like this it will help alot !!!

    dont worry about what type of chords-Maj Min etc--result from the voice leading..find what you ear likes first..name it later..

    the study of some classic standards and newer jazz compositions by veteran and new players should provide you with some material

    and the use of inversions and their voicings..close or open can change the sound of melding two chords a half step apart ALOT..

    example: GM7 Ab7#9 ( which could be some form of a D altered dom chord-D7b5 b9 perhaps...again study the voicings and their movement

    hope this helps a bit

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen View Post
    ..
    dont worry about what type of chords-Maj Min etc--result from the voice leading..find what you ear likes first..name it later..
    Whatever success I've had has come from this approach. Connect the dots by leading the voices and be open to chord grips that are unfamiliar and new in the process.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma View Post
    Hi all, I hope you are doing OK.

    I have been practicing passing chords and love the sound of diminished secondary dominants. I have been going up the neck using them as linking chords. However I am not sure what chords are normally used when going a half step down to a chord? I have been trying some substitutions like a major 7 going down to a dominant 7 in a major key but is their a standard approach to descending passing chords I should be practicing?

    Thanks in advance!
    Descending via b3 diminished chords was once a very common move. For instance, the original progression in bars 3-4 of I Got Rhythm was D-7 Dbo7 | C-7 F7 | (actually, it was an Eo7 as the tune was written in Db!). Out of Nowhere and Just Friends are other tunes where descending diminished passing chords occur. It wasn't long before players began subbing either a dominant VI (G7#9) or bIII (Db13) to harmonise the note Bb at that point in I Got Rhythm's melody. Pretty soon, chromatically descending ii-vs started appearing to replace descending b3 dims. Just Friends originally had a b3 dim in bars 7-8 and it's now most often heard with a ii-V from the b3 (in G, Bb-7 to Eb7 rather than Bbo7 for two bars). In fact, that substitution became so prevalent, musicians started altering the original melody to tunes (compare bar 6 in the original and later editions of Darn That Dream). A big part of the appeal was undoubtedly voice-leading: B-7 E7 would classically resolve to Amaj7 rather than Bb-7 Eb7 yet Amaj7 and Bb-7 share the same guide tones - C#/Db and G#/Ab.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma View Post
    Hi all, I hope you are doing OK.

    I have been practicing passing chords and love the sound of diminished secondary dominants. I have been going up the neck using them as linking chords. However I am not sure what chords are normally used when going a half step down to a chord? I have been trying some substitutions like a major 7 going down to a dominant 7 in a major key but is their a standard approach to descending passing chords I should be practicing?

    Thanks in advance!
    Going "a half step down" can mean shifting down two chords with a focus on their roots. The two chords might be the same type as in Blues, when going to the four chord... like Stormy Monday, but in Jazz, maybe different...
    Blues in C, going to F9 through F#(9):
    x 9 8 9 9 9 - x 8 7 8 8 8
    Jazz Blues in C going to F9
    x x 8 9 9 8 - x 8 7 8 8 8
    Sometimes you can take a chord shift that chromatically moves the roots down (but sounds a bit clunky) and smooth it by changing those chords so that their bottom notes are their sevens, like this:
    Ab(9) - Gaug going into Cm7
    clunky: x 11 10 11 11 11 - x 10 9 8 8 x
    smooth: x 9 10 10 9 x - x 8 9 8 8 x
    This sound sets up nicely in a song like Angel Eyes where the bridge continues like:
    (Cm7) Bdim Bbm7 A9b5 Ab(69)... where played slowly.
    A similar thing happens at the end of A section verses in End Of A Love Affair, but played quickly with a more "direct" sound - the first three chords are all m7:
    Cm7 Bm7 Bbm7 A9b5 Ab(69)
    Similarly to main chord changes, isolated passing chord changes may sound peculiar outside a context of a song. Some changes will sound fine in isolation, but those are the low hanging fruit, the "vanilla" changes.Try to base your listening and experimentation as much as possible in the contexts of songs to find the others.

  9. #8

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    this video has some pertinent advice

    his whole channel is awesome actually ...


  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB View Post
    Descending via b3 diminished chords was once a very common move. For instance, the original progression in bars 3-4 of I Got Rhythm was D-7 Dbo7 | C-7 F7 | (actually, it was an Eo7 as the tune was written in Db!). Out of Nowhere and Just Friends are other tunes where descending diminished passing chords occur. It wasn't long before players began subbing either a dominant VI (G7#9) or bIII (Db13) to harmonise the note Bb at that point in I Got Rhythm's melody. Pretty soon, chromatically descending ii-vs started appearing to replace descending b3 dims. Just Friends originally had a b3 dim in bars 7-8 and it's now most often heard with a ii-V from the b3 (in G, Bb-7 to Eb7 rather than Bbo7 for two bars). In fact, that substitution became so prevalent, musicians started altering the original melody to tunes (compare bar 6 in the original and later editions of Darn That Dream). A big part of the appeal was undoubtedly voice-leading: B-7 E7 would classically resolve to Amaj7 rather than Bb-7 Eb7 yet Amaj7 and Bb-7 share the same guide tones - C#/Db and G#/Ab.
    sometimes they have to change the melody a bit to allow it, like Darn That Dream

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma View Post
    Hi all, I hope you are doing OK.

    I have been practicing passing chords and love the sound of diminished secondary dominants. I have been going up the neck using them as linking chords. However I am not sure what chords are normally used when going a half step down to a chord? I have been trying some substitutions like a major 7 going down to a dominant 7 in a major key but is their a standard approach to descending passing chords I should be practicing?

    Thanks in advance!
    I don't think I understand this post. Can you post some of the chord sequences that you have been practicing?

    I don't understand the question about "what chords are normally used when going a half step down to a chord". It depends on the context. What's the progression? What tune? Passing between what and what?

    Can you give some examples of how you're using "diminished secondary dominants"?

  12. #11

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    Descending via b3 diminished chords was once a very common move. For instance, the original progression in bars 3-4 of I Got Rhythm was D-7 Dbo7 | C-7 F7 | (actually, it was an Eo7 as the tune was written in Db!). Out of Nowhere and Just Friends are other tunes where descending diminished passing chords occur. It wasn't long before players began subbing either a dominant VI (G7#9) or bIII (Db13) to harmonise the note Bb at that point in I Got Rhythm's melody. Pretty soon, chromatically descending ii-vs started appearing to replace descending b3 dims. Just Friends originally had a b3 dim in bars 7-8 and it's now most often heard with a ii-V from the b3 (in G, Bb-7 to Eb7 rather than Bbo7 for two bars). In fact, that substitution became so prevalent, musicians started altering the original melody to tunes (compare bar 6 in the original and later editions of Darn That Dream). A big part of the appeal was undoubtedly voice-leading: B-7 E7 would classically resolve to Amaj7 rather than Bb-7 Eb7 yet Amaj7 and Bb-7 share the same guide tones - C#/Db and G#/Ab.



    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    sometimes they have to change the melody a bit to allow it, like Darn That Dream
    Hey, you're stealing my lines!

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB View Post
    Descending via b3 diminished chords was once a very common move. For instance, the original progression in bars 3-4 of I Got Rhythm was D-7 Dbo7 | C-7 F7 | (actually, it was an Eo7 as the tune was written in Db!). Out of Nowhere and Just Friends are other tunes where descending diminished passing chords occur. It wasn't long before players began subbing either a dominant VI (G7#9) or bIII (Db13) to harmonise the note Bb at that point in I Got Rhythm's melody. Pretty soon, chromatically descending ii-vs started appearing to replace descending b3 dims. Just Friends originally had a b3 dim in bars 7-8 and it's now most often heard with a ii-V from the b3 (in G, Bb-7 to Eb7 rather than Bbo7 for two bars). In fact, that substitution became so prevalent, musicians started altering the original melody to tunes (compare bar 6 in the original and later editions of Darn That Dream). A big part of the appeal was undoubtedly voice-leading: B-7 E7 would classically resolve to Amaj7 rather than Bb-7 Eb7 yet Amaj7 and Bb-7 share the same guide tones - C#/Db and G#/Ab.





    Hey, you're stealing my lines!
    Oh yeah I can’t read

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Oh yeah I can’t read
    Mea culpa. If I'd thought to split up that unwieldy paragraph, you may not have fallen asleep halfway through...

  15. #14

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    What's a diminished secondary dominant?

  16. #15

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    What's a diminished secondary dominant?
    Don't know about the terminology but the intention is clear.

    Ex. Key of C

    C#o Dm
    D#o Em
    Eo F
    F#o G
    G#o Am
    A#o Bo

    Bo C resolving to the tonic being the primary diminished resolution.
    Last edited by bako; 08-25-2020 at 08:18 AM.

  17. #16

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    Ah, yeah, makes sense. A leading tone diminished is another name for it.

  18. #17
    Thanks for all these great replies everyone, really helpful and will keep me busy for a while!!

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma View Post
    Hi all, I hope you are doing OK.

    I have been trying some substitutions like a major 7 going down to a dominant 7 in a major key but is their a standard approach to descending passing chords I should be practicing?

    Thanks in advance!
    Secondary dominants when altered can offer you a half-tone descending bass-line too.

    Like in a "Blue Moon" turn if you were to use III7 /b5 VI7+ II7 /b5 V13

    6x675x

    5x566x

    4x453x

    3x345x

    Also in a "blues turnback" use alternating extensions like 7 13th 7 b13

    6x678x

    5x566x

    4x456x

    3x344x ---> x3334x ---> 6x456x
    Last edited by WILSON 1; 08-26-2020 at 11:57 AM.

  20. #19

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    Chromatic approach

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    For me:

    Dominants to major, dominant or minor.

    Any same voicing sliding down... i.e. Maj7 to Maj7, Dom7 to Dom7, mi7 to mi7 etc.

    I like to have a high note that is in both chords if I can. Kind of a Steely Dan device.
    Great this is perfect to start with thanks!

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen View Post
    Experimentation is the key word in things like this...

    in doing so ANY two chords in ANY direction MAY sound good...now the key to this approach is voice leading..
    paying attention to the bass and top notes..are they going in the same direction or contrary motion..

    then the middle voices...move them around-ONE note at a time to hear how they sound in relation to each other..if you can record stuff like this it will help alot !!!

    dont worry about what type of chords-Maj Min etc--result from the voice leading..find what you ear likes first..name it later..

    the study of some classic standards and newer jazz compositions by veteran and new players should provide you with some material

    and the use of inversions and their voicings..close or open can change the sound of melding two chords a half step apart ALOT..

    example: GM7 Ab7#9 ( which could be some form of a D altered dom chord-D7b5 b9 perhaps...again study the voicings and their movement

    hope this helps a bit
    Yes this is good advice, thanks very much!

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB View Post
    ...Just Friends originally had a b3 dim in bars 7-8 and it's now most often heard with a ii-V from the b3 (in G, Bb-7 to Eb7 rather than Bbo7 for two bars). In fact, that substitution became so prevalent, musicians started altering the original melody to tunes ....
    Wow! Talk about coincidence, I was just pondering this today ... I see versions of JF with the dim chord there, and other with the 2 -5 and yet others with the dim in the 1st part and the 2-5 on the second part. Was wondering what was the original intent? Just a question to you (and others) - which do you prefer? I like the dim version myself, but I can see why peeps like to slip the 2-5 in for a bit of movement perhaps, or just nicer to improv over?

    I'm interested to hear thoughts on this. And yeah, a great example of a dim chord passing down a semitone and sounding excellent with the melody. Becoming one of my fave tunes!

  24. #23

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    I think I only use three - diminished, dom7, dom7b5.

    So: Em7-Ebo-Dm7-Db7b5-CM7. Or variations thereof.

    And possibly a DbM7 instead of the 7b5.

  25. #24

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    Babaluma, you got TASTE!

  26. #25

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    When you say a half step down, you must be referring to the root movement. So, the chord can be any type. For example, if your target chord is A7, the root will be Bb.You can try all main chord types to see what fits. Bb7, Bb6, Bbdim etc. I don't think there is a set way. Where you are coming from may dictate your choice. Em7 / / Bb7 | A7 / / / works. You can also add whole steps. For example, B7 / Bb7 / A7. Equally, you can start on A7 going up a tone and back down eg A7 Bb7 B7 Bb7 A7. You can also do Bb7 Ab7 A7, starting the first chord off the beat. Bb7 Eb7 A7 works. Bm7 Bb7 A7 is another example. Bb7b5 A7. E7#9 Eb7/Bb A7. Possibilities are endless, but be aware of your situation. These may work in a solo setting, but in a band with a piano player, you may get some funny looks. Just my tuppence worth.

  27. #26

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    Helps to think about the melody line in relation and helps explain why altered dominants work so well decending by half step- a b5 on the passing chord is the nat 5 of the chord below it while a #5 is the 6th of the chord below, similarly, a b9 becomes a nat9 and a #9 becomes a maj 3rd