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  1. #1

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    I think this is a question that I would have had a different answer to not even all that long ago.

    So, obviously, it'd be pretty difficult to be a good blues or rock guitar player if you didn't listen to any blues or rock guitar players.

    But jazz is different, in that the functions of the guitar can be done by piano and horns. Theoretically, a player could listen to piano and sax players and 'learn' to play that way.

    But is it possible to become a good player, in a functional sense of playing with others, without listening to any guitar players at all (or learning those things from a teacher)?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    There was this idea floating around years ago that there was a original, or "ur" language that people were born already knowing how to speak, but exposure to parent's speech caused a baby to forget it.

    So one day a king sent a newborn baby, who parents had just died in an accident, sent him to live with a mute sheppard who lived in a high mountain valley, away from any other person.

    Twelve years later the king ordered the child, who was now a young boy, to come to court and speak before the court. The boy was nervous in this alien environment to him, but at the gesturing of the king he stepped forward and said ... "baaahh! baaaah!"


    Last edited by BigDaddyLoveHandles; 08-15-2020 at 01:55 PM.

  4. #3

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    Heh, actually I meant to say, this would be an interesting experiment, but the guitarist would be learning things the hard way.

  5. #4

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    I can’t think of a jazz guitarist who has not been influenced at all by other guitarists, but I can think of many whose primary influence is other instruments.

    (in my case I like guitar, but feel I am influenced as much by other instruments.)

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobabrinks
    I think this is a question that I would have had a different answer to not even all that long ago.

    So, obviously, it'd be pretty difficult to be a good blues or rock guitar player if you didn't listen to any blues or rock guitar players.

    But jazz is different, in that the functions of the guitar can be done by piano and horns. Theoretically, a player could listen to piano and sax players and 'learn' to play that way.

    But is it possible to become a good player, in a functional sense of playing with others, without listening to any guitar players at all (or learning those things from a teacher)?
    Think the functions of the guitar can be done by piano and horns?
    You may have already learned to play without listening to guitar.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobabrinks
    So, obviously, it'd be pretty difficult to be a good blues or rock guitar player if you didn't listen to any blues or rock guitar players.

    I think you have to look at what the language is for a particular genre and whether any of that language is guitar specific.

    You also have to look at how narrowly you define your categories.

    I have a bard time imagining blues being in Jeopardy if nobody listened to guitar players.

    Rock is dependent on what you think is rock. If you're talking about classic rock radio, then, yes, a lot of that was conceived on guitar and executed on guitar. The chord voicings alone are pretty guitar specific (heavy on the root-5th). Many of the sequences are inspired by the guitar, as well (major chords following minor pentatonic patterns). The importance of the guitar solo can't be overstated.

    But you also have sub genres like new wave which were completely synth driven. Guitar was given a back seat if used at all. When used it was generally trying to masquerade as a synth, or actually become a synth

    Can you become a good jazz guitar player without listening to guitar?-roland-g-707_0-jpg



    I'm not qualified to speak on jazz, but it seems to me from the sidelines that most guitar players are trying to imitate the piano harmonically and the sax melodically. Fusion is really the only sub genre that features guitar and guitar solos.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I can’t think of a jazz guitarist who has not been influenced at all by other guitarists, but I can think of many whose primary influence is other instruments.

    (in my case I like guitar, but feel I am influenced as much by other instruments.)
    I think that theoretically it should be able to be accomplished.

    You can learn comping from sparse piano players like Diana Krall, and solos from ... whomever really. I think the complications in trying to copy sax players are that the fluidity of the lines are difficult to replicate on the guitar. So, you can just make a mess of the time and phrasing trying to port it over. But line wise at least, the mission is more clear.

    In terms of rhythm, I think harder. I think there's a pedagogy with the four to the bar and rudimentary voicings that guitar players use. I think learning to comp from listening to piano players is a very difficult process based on the massive differences in the instruments.

  9. #8

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    Who did Django listen to, guitarwise? Was it Eddie Lang, or Lonnie Johnson? If so, who did they listen to guitarwise? I think they'd all qualify as being good - someone had to be the first and what/who did they listen to? Louis Armstrong?

  10. #9

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    Before the days of codified academic jazz “education” we learned mostly by listening to/coping of Bird, Coltrane, Young, Davis (as well as guitar players, sure). And doing that lifting and dropping the needle on the record. Long before there were digital boxes or software that slowed things down for you while keeping the same key context.
    So yea, to me you can learn jazz from other instrumentalists. That’s speaking single line of course.

    Personal opinion, but I believe it’s a much better way for a guitarist to learn. Wind players have to breathe, thus phrase much the way a singer would. Natural spaces/pauses in a line that punctuate it giving it more impact. This results in a far more interesting and listenable line than the typical guitar player endlessly running the scales/modes with little pauses to “breathe”.

    As Miles said: “Play the rests”.

    Chord or harmony wise it can be done but it requires a great set of ears, along side the fact that other chordal instruments (ie piano) allow close voiced harmonies that are just physically impossible on the guitar. (Due to the intervals between strings.) Howard Roberts harmonies I think came closest to the spirit of keyboard harmony on the guitar, check out his Praxis method.
    I did study harmony with a great jazz pianist, didn’t last long we drove each other crazy with ‘Why cant you do that on the guitar/Hey I can’t do that on the guitar!”

  11. #10

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    First of all, why would you.

    Second, are you going to carefully filter jazz you listen to to make sure before you listen that the combo doesn't have a guitar player. I'm not sure it's possible.

  12. #11

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    Django started out on banjo, as did many of the early guitarists. I suspect many influences were involved for all of them.

  13. #12

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    If someone burst onto the scene that caused some waves and claimed that he/she never listened to guitar players, I'd be very interested to hear them. Great way to sound original!

  14. #13

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    I've been playing strings for almost 60 years, but the music that tickles my ear the most is usually wind driven. I spent a lot of time trying to play like them. It tends to lead to looking at the guitar as series of problems that need some pretty heroic solutions. Eventually it might lead to some unique music.

    At some point you turn it around and realize the guitar is not a sax or a piano. We can do a lot of things they can't do. Doesn't hurt to listen to someone letting the guitar be a guitar.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    If someone burst onto the scene that caused some waves and claimed that he/she never listened to guitar players, I'd be very interested to hear them. Great way to sound original!


    I used to hear that claim a lot. Used to say it myself. How true that might be is very hard to test

  16. #15

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    I rarely listen to guitar. My playing was derived from pianists and horn players.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    If someone burst onto the scene that caused some waves and claimed that he/she never listened to guitar players, I'd be very interested to hear them. Great way to sound original!
    You could say I burst onto the scene. My jazz standards has garnered a lot of attention. About 30 or more positive reviews and more coming. It peaked at #20 on Jazz Week radio chart. Still on the chart, but barely. It’s been on since March. I almost never listened to guitar.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  18. #17

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    Jimmy Bruno has said he didn't listen to a lot of guitar players. He certainly likes some of them--especailly Hank Garland--but he always listened more to horn players.

    There are at least two kinds of listening: 1) for things you might be able to use (-I think this is how many muscians took phrases from Charlie Parker and 'did their own thing' with them) and 2) listening to things you enjoy but aren't going to imitate (say, stride piano or Dixieland or old Return To Forever albums.)

    Jimmy's dad played guitar and that may be the reason Jimmy picked up one instead of a sax.
    I once heard Jack Wiklins say there was a time he wanted to quit the guitar because he couldn't do it what piano players could do and THAT is what he wanted to do. Glad he got past that!

    I wonder if sax players ever talk about not learning from (or listening to) sax players.

  19. #18

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    Brecker listened a lot to rock guitar players.

  20. #19

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    The other day, I said in another forum : "jazz guitar is not a guitar !"

  21. #20

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    There's no need to do something like this today, and "today" started in the 1930s.

  22. #21

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    The chicken or the egg ?

  23. #22

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    What you shouldn't do is what I did too much of in my life: listen to ONLY guitar players.

    Yes, I have that disease.

    I'm exaggerating, but I am somewhat guilty of this cardinal musical sin. At least I do listen to guitar players of all types. Classical, jazz, acoustic, rock, blues, folk. I'm the guy who reads every word in Guitar Player, Vintage Guitar, and Fretboard Journal magazines. I love it all. (Well, most of it.)

    It's not the best path. I'm too old to care about "getting better" anymore, so I just do what I want. But I know the path to becoming a better jazz guitarist would involve listening to a lot more horns and piano than I have.

    I know Monk, Bird, Trane, and Miles, and have many of their albums. But I am just not as steeped in it as a good jazz player should be.

    So that's the other side of the coin.
    Last edited by Flat; 08-20-2020 at 12:41 AM.

  24. #23

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    Of the top of my head, I remember Ernest Ranglin commenting in an interview that he listened to horn players more than other guitarists. Pat Metheny, to an extent, also.

  25. #24

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    In some respects if you are the only guitarist in a band, or you are playing solo, you can’t help but listen to the guitarist - it’s you. It’s actually a requirement.

    As far as influencing my playing, I used to avoid listening to guitarists as much as I could and went for horns, other strings like violin, and piano. However, I eventually let temptation get the best of me and I listen to guitarists a lot more often now. I think that I somehow found myself needing to recognize how guitar can be more of an integral part to an ensemble. Less of an oddball.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    If someone burst onto the scene that caused some waves and claimed that he/she never listened to guitar players, I'd be very interested to hear them. Great way to sound original!
    but this is really quite absurd, and the sort of thing only a guitarist would say. How the hell would they learn to play to begin with? Would a sax or piano player ever claim “ I never listen to other players of my instrument”? ISTM this ‘im a special snowflake who never listens to other players” is really just an ego statement showing a lack of respect for the history and tradition of the instrument.

  27. #26

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    There is not much blues music without guitar and there is practically no rock music without it. It is impossible not to listen to guitar, with blues and rock, no matrer whether you actually want to play that music.

    There is a lot of Jazz music without guitar.

    Provided you have at least minimal learning capabilities, so you can get some command over instrument, decypher notation and understand some theory, it is definitely possible to learn and play jazz on guitar without ever listening to jazz guitar music. Having some musicality and "musical ear" is welcome bonus, but in no way is essential.

    You have to listen to specific type of Jazz, or of any other style music, only if you want to play that specific type of that specific style of music.

    Sent from My Blog Page

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    but this is really quite absurd, and the sort of thing only a guitarist would say. How the hell would they learn to play to begin with? Would a sax or piano player ever claim “ I never listen to other players of my instrument”? ISTM this ‘im a special snowflake who never listens to other players” is really just an ego statement showing a lack of respect for the history and tradition of the instrument.
    Yes but jazz guitar is not played like a guitar, you strum in every style of music even in classical and quite never in jazz guitar, if you are strumming they are usually not "cowboys chords".
    Jazz guitar doesn't respect the tradition of the instrument because the goal is to emulate one or several other instruments.
    The saxophones were made to emulate strings, distorted guitar sounds with sustain are supposed to emulate the saxophone.
    Jazz guitar doesn't come from its own world, in Gypsy jazz (the way you call it), the comping guitar emulates a drum or something like that, Joe Pass has got a pianistic style, etc.

    But it can be said about every instrument, in every area.

    One day some people invented the jazz guitar and now since it's an academic art, we forgot it doesn't come from the guitar itself.

    So if you are influenced by Joe Pass, you are influenced by a guitar playing but indirectly by a piano playing.

    The question has got no answer, it depends of your knowledge.
    It can be yes or no...

    It's like the chicken and the egg.

  29. #28

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    Trumpeter Randy Sandke and tenorist JR Monterose each took up guitar mid-career when an injury/illness forced them to lay off their horns for a while. Obviously that gave them a somewhat different perspective than if they had grown up with the instrument, but they played with any number of good guitarists over the years so it's not like they learned in a complete vacuum...

    PK

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax
    Yes but jazz guitar is not played like a guitar, you strum in every style of music even in classical and quite never in jazz guitar, if you are strumming they are usually not "cowboys chords".
    Jazz guitar doesn't respect the tradition of the instrument because the goal is to emulate one or several other instruments.
    The saxophones were made to emulate strings, distorted guitar sounds with sustain are supposed to emulate the saxophone.
    Jazz guitar doesn't come from its own world, in Gypsy jazz (the way you call it), the comping guitar emulates a drum or something like that, Joe Pass has got a pianistic style, etc.

    But it can be said about every instrument, in every area.

    One day some people invented the jazz guitar and now since it's an academic art, we forgot it doesn't come from the guitar itself.

    So if you are influenced by Joe Pass, you are influenced by a guitar playing but indirectly by a piano playing.

    The question has got no answer, it depends of your knowledge.
    It can be yes or no...

    It's like the chicken and the egg.
    right, you never strum in jazz guitar except when you do, like say Freddie Green and every other guitarist of his era. Yes, guitar players have been influenced by other instruments, but the instrument goes back to the earliest days of Jazz, so its quite absurd to think anyone could on their own become a great jazz guitarist while remaining completely ignorant of all the other players of the instrument

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax

    ...So if you are influenced by Joe Pass, you are influenced by a guitar playing but indirectly by a piano playing....
    I do not think Joe Pass has pianistic style, but definitely he is an answer to the question in the thread: Indeed!

    Source: Was Joe Pass a “Genius” of Jazz Guitar? | by Sam Blakelock | Medium

    Joe and friend would spend hours copying Parker. In his interview for “An Evening With Joe Pass” (1994), Joe talks about how he focused on Charlie Parker and stayed away from transcribing from guitarists:

    “I wanted to play like a horn player. Avoided all types of guitar cliches.”
    “I never copied anything that Charlie Christian played. I can’t play any of his solos, I don’t know how they go... I never copied Django.”

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    I do not think Joe Pass has pianistic style, but definitely he is an answer to the question in the thread: Indeed!

    Source: Was Joe Pass a “Genius” of Jazz Guitar? | by Sam Blakelock | Medium

    Joe and friend would spend hours copying Parker. In his interview for “An Evening With Joe Pass” (1994), Joe talks about how he focused on Charlie Parker and stayed away from transcribing from guitarists:

    “I wanted to play like a horn player. Avoided all types of guitar cliches.”
    “I never copied anything that Charlie Christian played. I can’t play any of his solos, I don’t know how they go... I never copied Django.”
    Yes, it might be true, he played with a "pianistic" approach by accident, I think he said it without saying "pianistic", that's what the listener says.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    right, you never strum in jazz guitar except when you do, like say Freddie Green and every other guitarist of his era. Yes, guitar players have been influenced by other instruments, but the instrument goes back to the earliest days of Jazz, so its quite absurd to think anyone could on their own become a great jazz guitarist while remaining completely ignorant of all the other players of the instrument
    That's absolutely true although you can't articulate very well if you don't listen to saxophonists, they are the source of the inspiration.
    That's about soloing, not the rest like comping.
    Nobody played like Freddie Green before he did, Django did it that way by accident, that's not funny.

  34. #33

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    Its also a sign of guitarist’s insecurity -while guitar has been part of jazz since the earliest days, guitarists dont tend to show up on anyones list of the x greatest jazz musicians, so its natural that they would look outside the instrument to try to grab some glory

  35. #34

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    I have got the answer.
    Yes you can but some people did it before you and they called it "jazz guitar".
    A mix of banjo, piano, saxophone...

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax
    That's absolutely true although you can't articulate very well if you don't listen to saxophonists, they are the source of the inspiration.
    That's about soloing, not the rest like comping.
    Nobody played like Freddie Green before he did, Django did it that way by accident, that's not funny.
    i think Django takes a lot from Louis?
    AFAIK his style is pretty unusual actually (until everyone started being influenced by him). In the US most players of the era were still playing in a banjo derived style. Django was emulating a horn.

    so yeah; you may be overstating the case a little, but the guitar has always looked to other instruments for inspiration. That’s part of the fun as far as I’m concerned.

    The trick is to do it in a way that works with the guitar.

    Pretty much everyone here is a musical descendent of a bloke who played the guitar but listened mostly to tenor sax.

    (Unless you are a chord melody guy in which case, a bloke who tried to do piano on guitar.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-16-2020 at 05:06 AM.

  37. #36

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    Non guitarists influenced by other instruments

    Brecker - rock guitar
    Miles - singers (Frank, Billie), guitar (Charlie christian, Jimi) and of course, sax (bird, pres)
    Bird - piano (Art Tatum)
    Bud - alto sax (Bird)
    (of course all bop players on any instrument listened to Bird.)
    Errol Garner - rhythm guitar
    Earl Hines - trumpet

    fun if anyone can think of other examples?

  38. #37

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    Non jazz guitarists heavily influenced by other instruments:

    Clapton - harmonica, sarangi (IIRC)
    Robben ford - tenor sax
    Jeff Beck - vocals
    Merle Travis - stride piano
    Doc Watson - 5 string banjo rolls
    Eddie Van Halen - classical piano
    Yngwie and Uli Jon Roth - classical violin
    Jimi Hendrix - all sorts of stuff
    Derek Trucks - soul singers, sarangi
    John Mayer - his dad’s record collection.

    Theres a modern school of acoustic playing that is all about playing the guitar as a drum

    sure I can think of other examples...

    If anything guitarists have got less eclectic and listen more to guitar players exclusively. That’s why you have so many guys who sound like other guys.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-16-2020 at 05:26 AM.

  39. #38

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    Your record collection might all be non-guitar, but if you had a teacher, you heard guitar played.
    And, it would be difficult to like jazz and not hear some jazz guitar.
    And you can't live in this world and not hear guitar as you go about your day.

    My jazz record collection, early on, had more non-guitar records, but I heard plenty of guitar anyway.

  40. #39

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    The idea of consciously avoiding jazz guitar seems a bit odd. I don’t think anyone did that...

  41. #40

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    I think all the instruments have one thing in common - they try to emulate the human voice, in one way or another. And I don't see how any jazz musician who listens to music, and they all do, could fail to hear some guitars. If you play guitar and never, ever listen to other guitarists, how can you learn to fit in to a group? Comping is an essential skill, and it has to be learned somehow. While I'm sure there are high-level guitarists who never tried to copy any other guitarists, they certainly heard some, and learned something from hearing them. There is a difference between not actively searching out guitarists to copy, and never listening to any music with guitars in the band.

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The idea of consciously avoiding jazz guitar seems a bit odd. I don’t think anyone did that...
    I agree. It is also a bit degrading to the previous jazz (or swing) generations, which maybe reasonable maybe not, depending the current date. According to Joe Pass own words (in case he really said that sentences) he did exactly that. I partially agree with him, Charlie Parker was much better source to go in that time. Some guitar recordings in those time practically a shame compared to the same time giants... so I understand him.

    Thanks God, nowadays this is not the case. Interestingly, for current time it sounds weird to me to renew the guitar by emulating piano, and copying and playing music on guitar, which is already invented more than a half century ago on piano with an extrem technical production. I am not interested to hear Oscar Peterson on guitar. (I am talking NOT the great guitar players, who bring, then improve the self chord comping solos, like Bickert, JVR or Kreisberg).

  43. #42

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    More importantly, can I learn to play jazz guitar without listening to any jazz? It’s a bit of a nuisance.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    More importantly, can I learn to play jazz guitar without listening to any jazz? It’s a bit of a nuisance.
    there’s lots of young things doing exactly that. Go to Instagram and look for #jazzguitar...

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    I think all the instruments have one thing in common - they try to emulate the human voice, in one way or another. And I don't see how any jazz musician who listens to music, and they all do, could fail to hear some guitars. If you play guitar and never, ever listen to other guitarists, how can you learn to fit in to a group? Comping is an essential skill, and it has to be learned somehow. While I'm sure there are high-level guitarists who never tried to copy any other guitarists, they certainly heard some, and learned something from hearing them. There is a difference between not actively searching out guitarists to copy, and never listening to any music with guitars in the band.
    Allan Holdsworth is often cited as an example, but he listened to guitar players; Charlie Christian, Jimmy Raney, Django...

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    I do not think Joe Pass has pianistic style, but definitely he is an answer to the question in the thread: Indeed!

    Source: Was Joe Pass a “Genius” of Jazz Guitar? | by Sam Blakelock | Medium

    Joe and friend would spend hours copying Parker. In his interview for “An Evening With Joe Pass” (1994), Joe talks about how he focused on Charlie Parker and stayed away from transcribing from guitarists:

    “I wanted to play like a horn player. Avoided all types of guitar cliches.”
    “I never copied anything that Charlie Christian played. I can’t play any of his solos, I don’t know how they go... I never copied Django.”
    That's Joe, alright. He said he picked up the habit of never rehearsing from Oscar Peterson. Joe said his harmonic sense was the same as Oscar's because they grew up listening to the same things. (One of those same things was the Nat Cole Trio recordings).

    I think Joe is being honest here. I take him at his word. Though I've never heard a line of his playing that made me think he sounded like a horn player. I'm not ever sure what that means now; I think I knew what it meant when Lester Young was in his prime.

    Anyway, this may be why I don't care for Joe's playing---great as it is--as much as I do that of Charlie Christian, Wes, Herb Ellis and Barney Kessel. I don't see why avoiding guitar cliches and instead playing saxophone cliches is some great thing. (Learning Bird lines because he was the greatest soloist you ever heard is not the same thing as wanting to play like a horn player.)

    'Playing in phrases because one has to breathe' isn't the help some may think. First, this has been common among blues guitarists all along. Pentatonic playing is almost unavoidably "phrase-y" (for good or ill.) Second, horn players who use circular breathing can play seemingly endless phrases because they have learned to keep playing AND breathe at the same time. And since circular breating is common among horn players nowadays (and has been for some time) the whole 'playing in phrases becauase you have to take a breath' doesn't apply to accomplished horn players at all. (This may be an argument AGAINST circular breathing. ;o)

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    My jazz record collection, early on, had more non-guitar records, but I heard plenty of guitar anyway.
    Same here. Early on, I didn't have any jazz records with guitar on them. Miles, Monk, Mingus, Coltrane, Louis Armstrong (some banjo but I didn't count that as guitar.)
    I didn't like the sound of jazz guitar that I did hear. No doubt because I grew up hearing distorted electric guitars play rock and blues. The first jazz guitar record I heard that knocked me out was Wes Montgomery's "Smokin' At The Half Note." I still think "No Blues" is as good of guitar solo as I've ever heard. Wes could really build a solo. Later I found Kenny Burrell's "Midnight Blue". I heard Charlie Christian later still and he knocked me out---he still sounds fresh today.

    It took me a LONG time to appreciate the sound of a jazz guitar (say, a 175 played through a Polytone).But I did and I like it. (Though it is not the only guitar sound I like.) Guitar comping is its own thing---I don't think it can be learned from listening to other instruments.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    but this is really quite absurd, and the sort of thing only a guitarist would say. How the hell would they learn to play to begin with? Would a sax or piano player ever claim “ I never listen to other players of my instrument”? ISTM this ‘im a special snowflake who never listens to other players” is really just an ego statement showing a lack of respect for the history and tradition of the instrument.
    Not necessarily. I listened very closely to the language of jazz: Lester Young, Dexter Gordon, Charlie Parker, Herbie, Chick, Miles, Freddie, Brownie, McCoy, Rollins, Dolphy, Cannonball, Oscar Peterson, Coltrane, Phineas, etc.. I never wanted to play those instruments. But I figured I'd get the language in my head and play the guitar the way I heard it in my mind and imagination. It doesn't HAVE to come from other guitar players. I like the lineage of jazz. I just find the line from guitar players less interesting. They didn't invent the lineage or the language. They all copied bop from Bird. I never sought to insult guitar players. I just thought it would be a great experiment to do it another way. This came from my association with Mingus. He told me, "Play your own shit, even if it stinks." I've been playing since 1969. I'm not changing now. LOL.

    Jazz is a personal language. For ME it was never an art about copying other people, even though that's the standard way of doing it. We're all taught to transcribe solos and try to sound like X,Y and Z. Great. I've done my fair share of that, but it was never about that for me. I could count them for you. For me it was about listening, analyzing chords and playing what I heard in my head.

    Obviousy I listened to Metheny especially his first album. I like Sco, but I was never a Pass, Hall type guitar player. The Bridge I was more interested in Rollins than Hall. But that's OK, isn't ? I have never transcribed a guitar anything beyond the first three Jimi Hendrix records way back in the 70s. I learned but did not memorize all of his solos. My fav current guitar player is Adam Rogers. But I rarely listen. Sue me.
    Last edited by henryrobinett; 08-16-2020 at 12:42 PM.

  49. #48

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    "Play your own shit, even if it stinks."

    I need a t shirt of that haha

  50. #49

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    If I think more on this - it was never the timbre of the guitar that I liked. It was the notes. As a matter of fact, I never liked the tone of the guitar. That's why I keep burying it in reverb and chorus for a while. The SOUND of the tenor. That's what I hear in my head. I was just too far along in my college years to change. Then I figured I could contribute more as a guitar player than being another in a long line of tenor players. I liked the tone of Robben Ford. But that's Robben Ford's sound. I don't want to sound like Robben Ford. Why would I? And I don't think that's arrogance. I think that's more Mingus' words.

    This is what has always confused me. I NEVER understood why anyone would want to sound like anyone else. And yes I know. There are times I think I sound like Metheny, or Sco. But that's because those sounds are in my head, I guess. I never tried to. I never thought about how to sound like anybody. But there are some people who spend an inordinate amount of tie actively TRYING to sound like their hero's. I never understood this, beyond perhaps a little insecurity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Non jazz guitarists heavily influenced by other instruments:

    Clapton - harmonica, sarangi (IIRC)
    Robben ford - tenor sax
    Jeff Beck - vocals
    Merle Travis - stride piano
    Doc Watson - 5 string banjo rolls
    Eddie Van Halen - classical piano
    Yngwie and Uli Jon Roth - classical violin
    Jimi Hendrix - all sorts of stuff
    Derek Trucks - soul singers, sarangi
    John Mayer - his dad’s record collection.

    Theres a modern school of acoustic playing that is all about playing the guitar as a drum

    sure I can think of other examples...

    If anything guitarists have got less eclectic and listen more to guitar players exclusively. That’s why you have so many guys who sound like other guys.
    Eddie Van Halen wasn't influenced by classical piano, he was just taking lessons as a kid. He lost interest in that by his teenage years. He was primarily influenced by Clapton.

    The problem with jazz guitar is... well it is not the first instrument you think when you talk jazz. Its function in jazz was purely rhythm in the beginning. It started to have a solo spot with Charlie Christian right? At least in American jazz. And who did Charlie copied? Horn players, of course!

    I always said, and forgive me, but electric guitar found its unique voice in pop and rock music muuuuuch more than in jazz. In the early years of jazz guitar the guitarists were influenced by horn or piano players the most, who else would influence them?

    Later it changed, and guitarists started to find more unique voice, when again, they took the inspiration from, in terms of sound and some phrasing and whatnot- from rocknroll!

    So to answer the OP, totally, if you just want to play jazz, you'll be ok to just listen to horn or piano players and avoid any guitar. Of course, it begs the question, why do you choose to play guitar in the first place, but it's a different topic.