The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    I don’t think so. I went to my own school. What do you mean? I went against what was taught. That’s what I’m saying.


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    Hi, H,
    I corrected my previous post to make it more clear. Play live . . . Rognvald
    Last edited by Marinero; 08-19-2020 at 07:54 AM. Reason: addition

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, H,
    I corrected my previous post to make it more clear. Play live . . . Rognvald
    Clear as mud. Lol. It must be a generational thing? What must be and why?


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  4. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Clear as mud. Lol. It must be a generational thing? What must be and why?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Hi, H,
    Formal Jazz pedagogy during the late 60's/early 70's was not what it has become today with dedicated Jazz Programs in most college Music Departments around the country. In 1973, I visited Berklee College of Music in Boston which was the most acclaimed program in the US and one of the few dedicated Jazz Music programs in the US at the time. I was working ,then, in Chicago , with a Jazz Rock big band and jobbing, when available, with R@B groups when I considered taking off a year for formal study. Most of the musicians I played with ,then, learned "on the job" moving from gig to gig and absorbing as much as possible. This was also my method although ,as a saxophonist, I was heavily invested into self-study of scales and chords being enamored with Coltrane, Stitt, and Gordon. And, if one did study with a teacher, it was largely concentrated on technique although I did study improvisation with Chicago's Willie Pickens--pianist, who basically comped while I worked on my piece of the week. So, when I say generational, it was the soup du jour,at that time, if one wanted to play Jazz/R@B,Soul, to play with a band and work on your sound/chops on the job. However, in the last 30 years,or so, Jazz programs have become well established around the country and began to churn out generations of "Jazz"musicians who not only learned the technique/pedagogy, but formally studied Jazz theory, history, and improvisation--mostly by playing solos as recorded on records. So, to be clear, the generational difference, as I see it, was study with a teacher/self study and learning on gigs versus enrolling in a Jazz studies program and testing the waters after graduation. Of course, this is a generalization but I think it holds water.
    So, as explained above, the simple answer to your question is that formal Jazz education is far more common in today's musicians than when I first started playing in the 60's and is, in my opinion, a generational way to learn/play that has changed over the years. (Did I mention the internet?) And, I will continue to believe that there is a huge gap in overall creativity/personality of the greats of the past in comparison to the hordes of techno-musicians today that play with the sentiment of a cardboard box. Perhaps, Jazz?? has changed and I haven't . . . Ave Verum Corpus. Play live . . . Marinero

  5. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, H,
    Formal Jazz pedagogy during the late 60's/early 70's was not what it has become today with dedicated Jazz Programs in most college Music Departments around the country. In 1973, I visited Berklee College of Music in Boston which was the most acclaimed program in the US and one of the few dedicated Jazz Music programs in the US at the time. I was working ,then, in Chicago , with a Jazz Rock big band and jobbing, when available, with R@B groups when I considered taking off a year for formal study. Most of the musicians I played with ,then, learned "on the job" moving from gig to gig and absorbing as much as possible. This was also my method although ,as a saxophonist, I was heavily invested into self-study of scales and chords being enamored with Coltrane, Stitt, and Gordon. And, if one did study with a teacher, it was largely concentrated on technique although I did study improvisation with Chicago's Willie Pickens--pianist, who basically comped while I worked on my piece of the week. So, when I say generational, it was the soup du jour,at that time, if one wanted to play Jazz/R@B,Soul, to play with a band and work on your sound/chops on the job. However, in the last 30 years,or so, Jazz programs have become well established around the country and began to churn out generations of "Jazz"musicians who not only learned the technique/pedagogy, but formally studied Jazz theory, history, and improvisation--mostly by playing solos as recorded on records. So, to be clear, the generational difference, as I see it, was study with a teacher/self study and learning on gigs versus enrolling in a Jazz studies program and testing the waters after graduation. Of course, this is a generalization but I think it holds water.
    So, as explained above, the simple answer to your question is that formal Jazz education is far more common in today's musicians than when I first started playing in the 60's and is, in my opinion, a generational way to learn/play that has changed over the years. (Did I mention the internet?) And, I will continue to believe that there is a huge gap in overall creativity/personality of the greats of the past in comparison to the hordes of techno-musicians today that play with the sentiment of a cardboard box. Perhaps, Jazz?? has changed and I haven't . . . Ave Verum Corpus. Play live . . . Marinero
    Ah! Yes. NOW that's clear. And of course I agree 1,000% Thank you.

  6. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax
    The first rock and roll bands had a saxophonist until they created effects for guitar.
    I really like that. All the recordings I've heard from that time made an impact on me. That sweet spot where jazz meets blues meets rocknroll is one of my favorite. Maybe they should've kept it that way. It's when guitar was mostly doing what it's supposed to do- play rhythm.

  7. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    I really like that. All the recordings I've heard from that time made an impact on me. That sweet spot where jazz meets blues meets rocknroll is one of my favorite. Maybe they should've kept it that way. It's when guitar was mostly doing what it's supposed to do- play rhythm.
    But to keep cost down the band had to make a decision; piano or guitar, and that often lead to no job for a guitarist.

  8. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    But to keep cost down the band had to make a decision; piano or guitar, and that often lead to no job for a guitarist.
    Really? Damn... Well, it only confirms that bass players get all the gigs all the time.

  9. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    But to keep cost down the band had to make a decision; piano or guitar, and that often lead to no job for a guitarist.
    i usually play in bands without piano. Usually it’s because they want a bit of rhythm. (Or else it’s a modern jazz thing and they want that texture; a bit of Frisell maybe.)

  10. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    i usually play in bands without piano. Usually it’s because they want a bit of rhythm. (Or else it’s a modern jazz thing and they want that texture; a bit of Frisell maybe.)
    We were discussing the 50s and the original Rock and Roll bands. It was my understanding (which is limited I admit), that a guitarist in such a band had to be solid at providing backing vocals and even lead vocals. Adding someone that just plays guitar to a Sax, Piano, Bass, Drum Rock and Roll \ R&B band, wasn't viewed as enough of a contribution.

  11. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    We were discussing the 50s and the original Rock and Roll bands. It was my understanding (which is limited I admit), that a guitarist in such a band had to be solid at providing backing vocals and even lead vocals. Adding someone that just plays guitar to a Sax, Piano, Bass, Drum Rock and Roll \ R&B band, wasn't viewed as enough of a contribution.
    Definitely. When I've done stuff like that I've been on backing vox... hard though, playing guitar at the same time! Not great at it (which is maybe why I don't get those calls so much) - you kind of want something who's a basic but strong player who is just dialled in with the playing and singing thing. Plus some of those guys have their rockabilly lead chops together as well...

    Man, music is HARD!

  12. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Definitely. When I've done stuff like that I've been on backing vox... hard though, playing guitar at the same time! Not great at it (which is maybe why I don't get those calls so much) - you kind of want something who's a basic but strong player who is just dialled in with the playing and singing thing. Plus some of those guys have their rockabilly lead chops together as well...

    Man, music is HARD!
    I remember bands where the front line guys, guitar, bass, vocals, horns, all had to do choreographed dance routines on top 40 tunes.

    Daytona Beach, Easter, 1968. Hitchhiked down there from NYC. There was an auditorium built at the end of a pier. Two bands. Abe and the Houserockers was one. I don't recall the name of the other one, but they were great. Singing, choreographed dancing and rocking like crazy. Best rock bar band I ever heard. I recall that they were racially mixed, which was still a little unusual at that time.

    Might anybody know who they were?

  13. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, H,
    Formal Jazz pedagogy during the late 60's/early 70's was not what it has become today with dedicated Jazz Programs in most college Music Departments around the country. In 1973, I visited Berklee College of Music in Boston which was the most acclaimed program in the US and one of the few dedicated Jazz Music programs in the US at the time. I was working ,then, in Chicago , with a Jazz Rock big band and jobbing, when available, with R@B groups when I considered taking off a year for formal study. Most of the musicians I played with ,then, learned "on the job" moving from gig to gig and absorbing as much as possible. This was also my method although ,as a saxophonist, I was heavily invested into self-study of scales and chords being enamored with Coltrane, Stitt, and Gordon. And, if one did study with a teacher, it was largely concentrated on technique although I did study improvisation with Chicago's Willie Pickens--pianist, who basically comped while I worked on my piece of the week. So, when I say generational, it was the soup du jour,at that time, if one wanted to play Jazz/R@B,Soul, to play with a band and work on your sound/chops on the job. However, in the last 30 years,or so, Jazz programs have become well established around the country and began to churn out generations of "Jazz"musicians who not only learned the technique/pedagogy, but formally studied Jazz theory, history, and improvisation--mostly by playing solos as recorded on records. So, to be clear, the generational difference, as I see it, was study with a teacher/self study and learning on gigs versus enrolling in a Jazz studies program and testing the waters after graduation. Of course, this is a generalization but I think it holds water.
    So, as explained above, the simple answer to your question is that formal Jazz education is far more common in today's musicians than when I first started playing in the 60's and is, in my opinion, a generational way to learn/play that has changed over the years. (Did I mention the internet?) And, I will continue to believe that there is a huge gap in overall creativity/personality of the greats of the past in comparison to the hordes of techno-musicians today that play with the sentiment of a cardboard box. Perhaps, Jazz?? has changed and I haven't . . . Ave Verum Corpus. Play live . . . Marinero
    Didn’t Miles quit Juilliard after a semester? What happened to Miles? Oh that’s right he only turned out to be the player of his generation. So, what we’ve learned is one doesn’t need to attend music school to become famous, nor study guitarists to learn jazz guitar. Glad we got that straight.

    You played saxophone? Still play it? Gordon is my favorite!

  14. #138

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    I think the guitar sounds great on Henry's record.

  15. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Didn’t Miles quit Juilliard after a semester? What happened to Miles?

    Miles? You mean Miles David? He's flippin' burgers down at Jakes Burger Shack.

  16. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Didn’t Miles quit Juilliard after a semester? What happened to Miles? Oh that’s right he only turned out to be the player of his generation. So, what we’ve learned is one doesn’t need to attend music school to become famous, nor study guitarists to learn jazz guitar. Glad we got that straight.

    You played saxophone? Still play it? Gordon is my favorite!
    Hi, B,
    Yes, of course and I hope I made it clear in my last post. Do I still play sax? No. I haven't touched my horn since 1982. It's a Selmer Mark VI with the original lacquer in outstanding shape and a classic Meyer rubber mouthpiece for the big round sound. I used Rico Royals #4 for reeds. Maybe someday but then there's always the need to play with others. That's what I love about guitar. No one needed for a gig but yourself. Thanks for your response. Play live . . . Marinero

  17. #141

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    "I remember bands where the front line guys, guitar, bass, vocals, horns, all had to do choreographed dance routines on top 40 tunes." rpjazzguitar

    Hi, RP
    I played with R@B/Soul groups for years and it was the soup du jour to do dance routines to James Brown, Wilson Pickett, Sam and Dave, Sly, Al Green, Joe Tex, Rufus Thomas, and Aretha , to name a few. It was a big part of the show. We also hired "Shake Dancers" at some of our gigs who danced in bikinis and high heels and was a great crowd favorite. Here's a blast from the past! Check out JB and the alto sax solo. Ya wanna know where all the Jazzers who played horns were making a living in the 80's??? Play live . . . Marinero

    https://youtu.be/I0fbsc1Djyc

  18. #142

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    Here's some "Shake Dancers" for those who don't know. Play live . . .Marinero




  19. #143

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    Sorry, Guys. I had to play one more. Check out the tenor sax. Hard core Jazzer. Play live . . . Marinero


    Last edited by Marinero; 08-20-2020 at 09:10 AM. Reason: spelling

  20. #144

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    I missedplaying with shake dancers. The closest I came was some shows with a, original pop/rock R&B band in the 70s where we did some concerts with an African dance troupe.

  21. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    I missedplaying with shake dancers. The closest I came was some shows with a, original pop/rock R&B band in the 70s where we did some concerts with an African dance troupe.
    Hi, H,
    I'm a former Chicago guy and in the 70's into the early 80's, I played sax with R@B,Funk, Soul bands on Chicago's South and West side. These were usually small clubs/lounges and it was the first time I played with shake dancers. And, at that time, it was considered the soup du jour for the popular clubs such as The Enterprise Lounge on S. Stony Island, Wilmar's Playboy Lounge on 63rd St.and many whose names I can't remember. I also played at a strip club in Chicago's Oldtown-- Big Mike's and a transvestite show at the Half and Half Club on S. Michigan Avenue across from the Robert Taylor projects. The most unusual gig I ever played was a "Live Show" that was closed to the public and you'll have to use your imagination for an explanation. This was also the area, however, where tenor saxophonist Von Freeman had his weekly jam sessions at "The Enterprise Lounge," and later at the "Apartment Lounge" where I first heard 17 year old Stevie Coleman playing Bird solos. I doubt any of this exists today. Progress, huh? Play live . . . Marinero

  22. #146

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    Long ago I listened to the radio and whatever I liked I tried to copy on the guitar [regardless of the instruments that played it]. Violin, horns, keyboards, vocals, drums, sitars.... whatever came out of the speakers was fair game. I transferred all kinds of stuff & styles into the 6 strings of the guitar. Of course later I had to learn about good timing and "feel" . Now I guess it's still the same.

  23. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by myhandhurts
    Long ago I listened to the radio and whatever I liked I tried to copy on the guitar [regardless of the instruments that played it]. Violin, horns, keyboards, vocals, drums, sitars.... whatever came out of the speakers was fair game. I transferred all kinds of stuff & styles into the 6 strings of the guitar. Of course later I had to learn about good timing and "feel" . Now I guess it's still the same.

    Hi, M,
    That's how most started on the guitar. We also wore out phonograph needles and records copying licks. Today, the untrained musician has an abundance of learning tools on the internet. What a difference a day makes. Play live??(when??) . . . Marinero



  24. #148

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    It's definitely possible to listen to jazz without listening to guitar players.

    But guitar players have been working for about 100 years now translating this music to the instrument, and they made some very nice discoveries along the way. If you draw upon that tradition and build on what they've learned, you have the potential to save yourself a whole lot of trouble. Otherwise, you may find yourself reinventing the wheel.

  25. #149

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    Slightly OT, but folks were talking about the role of a guitarist in a group.

    40 years ago I jobbed occasionally on guitar with a band led by a jazz trumpeter. He had little liking for guitar; he only hired me to "bring the rock" when his band of middle-aged horn players was booked to play wedding receptions. If he needed a rock tune, he would bark, "Play Johnny B. Goode" to me, whether or not I had played and sung that song earlier.

    I actually learned to play musically ignorant but plausible-sounding jazz guitar solos by playing with this group. Eventually this leader found a guitarist who could read better than me - a low bar to hurdle at that time - and quit calling me.

  26. #150
    Most good jazz guitar teachers have their students work out of flute,clairinet and violin books I think? One of the best reasons to study non guitar solos is phrasing i.e. breathing instead of boring too many note show off my fast scales techiique type solos . Charlie Christian and Django are called the Fathers of Jazz Guitar as far as I know.Then maybe Tal Farlow and Jimmy Rainey to my favorite WES! I studied with Lenny Breau and he listened to old and new guitar and other instruments ,particularly Bill Evans and Mcoy Tyner which is very evident in his work.Pat Matheny says he likes to study Michael Brecker solos. If a guy is serious he will want the whole thing,because manytop jazz composers are not guitarists.But it took me a lot of years because I love the guitar in many styles to get around to learning from other instruments. My Roland guitar synth helped a lot! It didnt always track great but string pads are not fast! It taught me to think differently. Plus arranging and orchestration classes.