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Hi, B,
Originally Posted by BWV
I assume your remark is tongue in cheek, however, it is exactly this approach that creates music machines vs. musicians. My biggest problem with most younger players is that when you hear their "music," it sounds studied(as above) and inorganic to my ears. Music programs across the world are creating Jazz robots with big chops that play memorized solos from the greats, many note for note, as they launch their Youtube careers with backing tracks played in their bedroom lounges. Sadly, younger players do not have the opportunities to play live, as in my generation, and it shows in their "music." For a musician to bloom, he/she needs to play live with other musicians since the experience and the musical "give and take" are essential to creative growth. And, a player can never have a real "magical moment" as so often happens when playing live with other musicians. Some of my early "epiphanies" were reacting to bass lines/drum licks/horn riffs from fellow band members. And, after the gig, I wondered: "Where did that come from?"
So, one has a choice in his/her musical development: whether to choose an organic or academic approach to their music. And, as a blanket statement intended to avoid a civil war among some members, it is the reason I find many of the younger Jazz guitar "geniuses" ,revered by some on this Forum,as boring, lifeless, technicians. But, that's another topic. Here's an organic player with heavy R&B roots. Play live?????? . . . Marinero
https://youtu.be/19Hjt7a_hVc
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08-18-2020 10:28 AM
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I wouldn't assume it is the current younger generation that often sounds mechanical, but just younger (limited experienced) players, period. Originally Posted by Marinero
E.g. The Buddy Rich band; over 40 years go there were comments about how some of the younger players sounded mechanical, and how some of the old-dudes had soul, where more melodic, said something in their solos etc...
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slides, hammer ons, pull offs, vibrato, staccato, bends, palm mute, chicken picking, whammy bar, string scrapes, double stops, tremolo picking, harmonics, pinch harmonics
and probably several other things that Jeff Beck does that I can't think of
The point is, the guitar is a very expressive and unique instrument. Why not play it that way?
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Yeah.... tbh I’d be a little careful about allowing M to turn a thread into yet another boring rant about the alleged awfulness of modern music, but that’s me. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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Bebop is to blame. Swing musicians invented wah wah and outrageous showmanship.... Originally Posted by fep
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It is not about using or not using those tools. More about the motivation when and why to use. If a learning student try to transcribe and play along (cover) a horn solo, she/he is forced to use and discover those tools to get closer to the rendition of that particular horn solo, which seems to be a very authentic application and learning those tools. Originally Posted by fep
I do not see any contradiction here: Learning from the best musicians which fits to the student, (regardless if the hero is guitarist or not), and being a guitar student try to ingrain that music, improve the necessary guitar technique and tools for rendering that way. The bias to guitarist heros are not justified, indeed the opposite: this may lower the risk of technique for technique, the tools for tools, l'art pour l'art feel, it has a natural protection against :-)
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There's that, of course Originally Posted by fep
I never had a teacher, so I either learned that stuff from records (no YT then) or the occasional TV show, I really don't remember. Thing is, as you explore the instrument, you tend to just discover the tricks of the trade.
But string scrapes, seriously? Not even when rockin' out back in the 70s
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I (mostly) hate pinch harmonics. Seriously.
If you are in fact from Texas, you might be able to get away with them. Everyone else, desist please.
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Yeah string scrapes not what I meant. What do you call it when you downpick three of four strings, the lower strings muted and the highest string fretted and sounds out? For that matter somebody like Wes Montgomery did a variation of this when playing octaves, the fretted notes sound out, the in between muted strings give a bit of body or thump to the sound.
Yes not a string scrape. Not sure if there is a name for it.
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Hammer ons, pull offs, vibrato, bends, double stops, slides, staccatos and even whammy bar cones with the territory. It doesn’t take serious studying to learn how to do any of those things. The rest I don’t know. I never bothered with sweeping or that Van Halen two handed tapping thing. Just popular guitaristic tricks. Never interested. But the others are just a part of playing electric guitar. I played it a lot and those things came out. I replaced a guitar player in a band back in the early 80s who was a dead master at the whammy, a la Adrian Belew, so I played it. I never studied it. I bought King Crimson Discipline which had just come out. But I just listened, you know? I didn’t transcribe or learn anything. It was in the universe and kind of job required. Originally Posted by fep
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I think swing has a lot to do with it. When I hear Cannonball or Oscar Peterson or or Garland, Coltrane, Freddie, Herbie I hear a swing and sophistication I just don’t hear in the guitar players of the time. The phrasing was just awkward. Flat. One dimensional tone. The accents are wrong half the time. It just NEVER sounded right to me. I’ve talked about it before. I think I know what the problem is. But I still haven’t cracked the code. But I listened to jazz BEFORE I picked up a guitar. I knew what I thought it was supposed to sound like. But the jazz guitarists I heard when I started we’re Al Casey, Tal Farlow, Ellis, Kenny, Wes, early Larry Coryell playing with Chico Hamilton. Gabor Szabo. It just never sounded right.
But by then I was into Hendrix, electric modal Miles, and then fusion. But I STILL was deeply listening to Coltrane, Mingus, Dolphy, Cannonball, Miles, Oscar. I knew what it was SUPPOSED to sound like. Guitar just didn’t sound like that. But it did in my head. It didn’t in my fingers either. I was picking every note and not paying any attention to pick direction or phrasing. Timing was a mess. Accenting and phrasing was a mess. Still is probably, but I’m working on it. Lol.
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You should listen to your Body And Soul again, your articulate very well with dynamic on the double-time feel. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Thank you. I’ll check it out. Lol. Originally Posted by Lionelsax
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I'm talking about the one without effects but I think you're more comfortable with effects à la Mike Stern, in terms of sound. You feel more comfortable when there is sustain in the sound, right ? Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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I’m changing somewhat. But yeah. For a long time I just wanted to change the timbre of the guitar. I wanted more character or complicated tones. Distortion reminded me more of a sax. It wasn’t that straight fat mono tone that Martino got. And I LOVE Martino. I just didn’t want to sound like that. I didn’t want to sound like Stern either but the chorus I used was his as well. Serendipity. I had been using a pitch change setting in the SPX90. I didn’t know anyone else who used that. The. I saw him play in NYC in the early 90s. He let me play his TELE after the gig and i saw he used the same setting. Wow. I swear i didn’t copy him. But when I first heard him playing Back Seat Betty on Miles’ come back record I thought it sounded like me. Better but the same direction. Chorus and bop oriented fusion. Just a LOT better and more mature. Originally Posted by Lionelsax
Lately I’m turning off the chorus. I just don’t hear it any more unless I’m playing a few of my songs where that’s the sound. Still like delay. I’m not even using distortion much. I try but I’m not hearing it.
My Standards album has been fairly successful. And except for one song, Invitation, I don’t use chorus or distortion. I think it’s my nod to the tradition and evil eye I get from jazz guitar people - snobs. I always liked being rebellious. I know they hated it. But it was me. I don’t care if you don’t like it. I might get a little snarky about it but that’s not going to make me change. Maybe dig in my heels a bit.
But now that it’s out there I’m representing that sound. I guess.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by henryrobinett; 08-19-2020 at 12:09 AM.
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Btw, once I was in the teachers room, and I hear my student warming up in the lesson room from a distance, which first I almost mistaken for a sax. He's a beginner, but he likes to play lead stuff (rock, no jazz yet), so he uses distortion/overdrive, but has no vibrato at all mastered yet. So I made a mental notice, guitar with distortion no vibrato involved playing- very much sax tone. For some reason I never notice or thought about that before.
Oh, and he's got Les Paul copy, humbuckers.
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A rake! I use em all the damn time. Originally Posted by fep
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Well, this explains your opinion :-). Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Jokes aside, except of Wes, and partially Kenny you listened the wrong guys. Three of them are my anti hero, mostly because they prefer technical attractions over music, and always trying to play in those speed which are they way incapable, not caring about intonate a soulful note, not even when they are playing slowly. (to be fair, I do not know Al Casey, so my opinion goes to the remainig others)
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Yeah but I heard them all. I’m just saying the guys I heard first. Pass and Hall. Kessel. It was THAT guitar sound. It just never drew me to it. It was cool and all but there just was too narrow a field. I don’t know. I’m just talking about me, right? Guitar is Guitar. Not much you can do. It’s a small quiet instrument until it became electric with big amps. Originally Posted by Gabor
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The first rock and roll bands had a saxophonist until they created effects for guitar. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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Dude, preach! Originally Posted by fep
Yes, that's what fun about the guitar! Now as a teacher, I can show kids all the those tricks and see their faces light up. And I remember that's what drawn me to guitar in the first place. It actually made me go back and rediscover all the classic rock stuff that I was so excited about (but couldn't really play well at the time)
I just learned (re-learned) Panama and what a fun it to play. And yes, strings scrapes and pinch harmonics are totally awesome in my book! Horn players can only dream to sound like that lol
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And not to belabor but to explain. When I started playing guitar I had an uncle who played tenor. Old school. Lester. He remembered when he first heard Bird. He was painting a house in Oakland. He had heard about this Charlie Parker guy. Then he nearly fell off his ladder. It MUST be Bird he heard in the radio. Changed his life.
Anyway uncle Clarence when he found out I was starting to play guitar he played me these old records. Al Casey, Tal Farlow, Kessel, Ellis, Hall. But what he REALLY liked doing was giving me jazz lessons. He’d play me the lineage. Erskin Hawkins, Hot Lips, Basie, Lester, Holiday, Chu Berry, Coleman Hawkins, The duels, Dexter, Wardel, Bird, Dizzy, Bud, Monk, Miles. Rollins. But he did it chronologically. Took me through Dolphy. Showed me the line of innovation. That regardless of the instrument the musical line was followed. When Lester came along everyone changed. When Bird and Dizzy came all the instruments changed.
To me that meant that the musical THOUGHT was senior over the specific instrument. If you can hear the notes and the phrase in your head, that takes seniority over the style of some other guitar player. It’s the music. When it’s in your head it becomes YOUR music.
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But before Uncle Clarence my mom loved Oscar Peterson’s Sound of the Trio on Verve, Mingus’ Blues and Roots and Ah Um. So did I as a kid. Played them over and over. Then I discovered Mingus and played all of his records over and over BEFORE Clarence’s history lessons. I was fortunate. I knew what it was about and what it was supposed to sound like long before I decided to play the guitar. Even though I loved guitar it didn’t sound right in jazz context to me. Maybe that’s because uncle Clarence played tenor.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by henryrobinett; 08-19-2020 at 06:19 AM.
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" When Lester came along everyone changed. When Bird and Dizzy came all the instruments changed.
To me that meant that the musical THOUGHT was senior over the specific instrument. If you can hear the notes and the phrase in your head, that takes seniority over the style of some other guitar player. It’s the music. When it’s in your head it becomes YOUR music."
" I replaced a guitar player in a band back in the early 80s who was a dead master at the whammy, a la Adrian Belew, so I played it. I never studied it. I bought King Crimson Discipline which had just come out. But I just listened, you know? I didn’t transcribe or learn anything. It was in the universe and kind of job required" Henry Robinett
Must be a generational thing, Henry. We went to the same school. Play live . . . Marinero
Last edited by Marinero; 08-19-2020 at 07:52 AM.
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I don’t think so. I went to my own school. What do you mean? I went against what was taught. That’s what I’m saying. Originally Posted by Marinero
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